Gays and Jamaica

[sonja]

thank you Rob.

[jon c.]

well put

[Lola]

I had to remove Lola's latest post. She tried her best to answer questions directly presented to her, not an easy thing to do. But, Lola, quoting "Scripture" as a basis of fact and not faith is not justifiable. Religions, by their very nature, are faith based, even the ones based on "science". Tom Cruise learned that one the hard way.

And to quote any "Scripture" as fact can only lead to a thread that would eventually get out of complete control and necessitate the removal of the entire thread. It is a safe fact to say that fighting under the banner of religion has caused more wars and killed more people than any other single reason.

And please remember Lola, history is written by the winners. Had Ben, George, Tom, Sam, Bill, John and the other "founding fathers" of the American Revolutionary War lost, you would still be speaking English but they would today be labeled as bunch of foolish rebels without a clue. Things would have been much different without the French assistance to the American side.

Rob, thanks for your kind words about my effort to communicate on a difficult topic. However, it was odd to delete my post and then address parts of it, with mine not available to look back at.

I don’t recall quoting Scripture, only quoting a Webster’s 1828 Dictionary definition of the word ‘hate’ that included Scripture examples of "less love".

People like to say “…religion has caused more wars and killed more people than any other single reason.” but that’s not what the records of history show. This kind of information is now at our fingertips.

No one can say for sure what would have happened in the long term if the American revolution for Independence had failed. When the Declaration alone didn’t result in the desired outcome, they kept going.

Rob, with repeated effort you imparted to me that negril.com is the Jamaica visitor website I should be aligned with, that it isn’t appropriate to argue ‘why can’t we all get along’ regarding new sites springing up attempting to undermine your expertise. When I ‘got it’, I thanked you for going the extra mile to reach me. It was a changed perspective for me and I have appreciated it more over the years.

In a similar way I support Jamaican culture, versus the ‘why can’t we go along with all the change’ viewpoint. Some things may be contrary to tourism. Alas, many local cultures have been altered for the worst through the guise of ‘change’.

Disrupters are louder and better prepared to instigate change while defenders are surprised and unprepared for maintaining their established ways of life.

[Accompong]

Having lived for a time in several places around Jamaica over many years I have seen attitudes soften about the "gay" lifestyle. Many people still dislike it but aren't that militant as they used to be when seeing it practiced. About a month back, when marco posted that link and then titled it "Gays and Jamaica", I wasn't surprised at all the reactions it provoked. Perhaps that was the idea in the first place.

I may live in Jamaica but I will always be a "tourist" here. I may chat some patwa, know Jamaican History, a lot about the Culture and even count many close friends on my hands but it doesn't (in my mind) make me equipped to lecture any Jamaicans on what I believe is right or wrong in their country. I enjoy it here. If I didn't like it here, I would go elsewhere.

I also think that Negril is not that representative of the rest of Jamaica either. Things that go on there wouldn't be tolerated in some rural areas where I have lived.

The board goes through phases of topics and after a time even the best threads fade into obscurity. People want to know where to rent rooms, drink and party and that is what these forums are best at delivering. Some topics come up over and over again as people don't search the archive to find out what was said many times before but that is great too as more people have new and fresher recommendations to add.

Social problems can not be fixed by a travel board. Eventually the Jamaican Culture will evolve into a more universal view but it won't probably be fast enough for some people. Things are "soon come" and you just have to be patient.

"Out of many, One People.

Respect!

[Papa Georgie]

Please forgive my ignorance. Are there not laws on the Jamaica books called "the buggery laws"?
And these laws make it illegal to engage in homosexual acts? This tells me if you are "gay"
stay away from Jamaica.

[Rob]

Lola,

Thanks for responding. It was a tough decision to remove your post, but I did want to make it clear to everyone that I did, and you did address the questions directed towards you. I addressed parts of your comments to let you know why I made the decision.

There is hardly a topic that raises more animosity among people as much as religion. Politics is up there, but religion certainly holds its own. People have different levels of faith, and it can change over time for them. It is generally not a rigid belief they hold their entire lives. Their beliefs can vary over time. This goes for all religions, and most are represented on the island. Faith is a personal thing for each person, and that faith should be respected as that person's beliefs. But it should not be mistaken for fact. Is it a fact or faith from the Old Testament to believe that Adam and Eve lived for 900 years and Noah started having children when he was 500 years old? It depends on your faith.

Humans have been around for about 200,000 years. Most of that time was not recorded in history. Religion was no doubt a part of their lives. Even Neanderthals had burial rites, which constitute some form of religious beliefs. So while "recorded history" goes back 5000 years, there is 195,000 years of history where religion played a role in all aspects of human life including wars. I still say its safe to say that the banner (guise) of religion has caused more war and death than any other single cause.

https://whistlinginthewind.org/2012/...-cause-of-war/

And I think you may have misinterpreted my going the extra mile to reach you. I have always welcomed and even helped websites that promote Negril and Jamaica. DennyP's Hedo site, Xavier's Jamaicans site, Wellesley's My Island Jamaica site and Bob's OneStop site just to name a few. When I was trying to reach you, it was because you were "aligned" to sites where their true intention was not to promote Negril or Jamaica, but their own agenda. There are some terrific sites out there, but there are also some nasty sites that could almost be classified as "hate" sites. I feel that is why you "got it". You realized the anger behind the true intentions of those sites. You saw them for what they were and your beliefs changed.

And the idea of changes in beliefs can be just as pertinent to a country as it is on a personal level. Counties are not static entities in a vacuum, but ever changing by things both in and out of their control. When I first moved here, beliefs on the island were different than they are now. There was no real concern about stray animals (other than goats), but now you can now see Jamaicans walking their dogs and owning house cats. That was unheard of when I got here. And homosexuality was a taboo subject.

Even after nearly 15 years here, in 2005, Prime Minister PJ Patterson actually said "I'm no Chi Chi man" when confronting the Opposition insinuations that he was homosexual and declared it to be the worst attempt at demonization by the Jamaica Labour Party (JLP). Zoom forward ten years to 2014 and former Prime Minister PJ Patterson called for more tolerance for homosexuals in Jamaica.

PJ Patterson stated, “It’s an issue, I know, where people have very strong positions, but we have to find a way of moving away from polarised positions into one that accepts that differences of race or colour, differences of class, [and] differences even in terms of sexual preferences may have to be addressed in conformity with the prevailing global environment in which we live. Those who wish to have changes must accept the right of persons to speak freely, reflecting their convictions and they can’t expect to have all the say going one way, they must expect others to have contending positions”.

With the advent of JFLAG, Jamaican attitudes are changing as their beliefs change. That is the nature of Jamaican culture, as well as virtually all other cultures in history. Cultures have been around for tens of thousands of years and change happened for each culture to arrive at where we are at the present day.

[Rob]

Please forgive my ignorance. Are there not laws on the Jamaica books called "the buggery laws"?
And these laws make it illegal to engage in homosexual acts? This tells me if you are "gay"
stay away from Jamaica.

As I mentioned early in this thread, there are anti-sodomy/buggery laws in Jamaica. Just as there are laws still on the books in the USA in Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Michigan, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas and Utah. And this is after the Supreme Court stuck it down 12 years ago.

But as with those States, who enforces those laws. There are not "Buggery" police squads in Jamaica.

Papa, should gays stay away from Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Michigan, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas and Utah as well?

How do you explain the Gleaner article titled, "J'cans tap gay online rental market - Misterb&b seen as opportunity to diversify income." Here is the link:

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/b...nity-diversify

That sounds like the opposite of "stay away" to me.

[Papa Georgie]

I under stand your argument Rob. Sounds like what I would call a false equivalency. Reasonable people may disagree.