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Below is an article link about world-wide tourism harassment that I found interesting...the government is trying to make changes here in Jamaica and at the bottom there is a survey that can be filled out that is being conducted globally to study/prevent tourist harassment...
http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/n...gy-says-expert
The survey link...
http://visitorharassment.com/
Hi Lisa, I filled out the visitor harassment survey but in actuality I gave Negril a glowing report. Oh, I did mention a few harassment problems but they were few and far between for me. Guess I look to mean for them eh. :rolleyes:
Hey that's our home town Purdue University doing the survey~~~
saying "NO" usually ends the conversation so there isn't any harassment......
problem wi have today is dat there are way more unemployed Jamaicans in Negril than I have ever seen before.....way more
Cool Runnings, Marko
Saying "no thank you" USED to end the conversation. Now you have to say "no" until you are blue in the face ~25% of the time. Just last week a Rasta higgler on the beach threatened me when I became fed up with his persistent & obnoxious behavior - "Hey white boy I'll cut your head off". Encounters like this one have become more common in my experience.
Yes, this... and when people on here say "it doesn't happen!" or "just say no and it stops right away!" they must be either in denial, don't leave their AI resort, or are there so often they are "locals" and aren't bothered any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by wha gwan
Every trip I've had at least one or two unpleasant experiences. Sometimes more. Being polite, friendly, saying "respect", all that stuff, with some of these guys just doesn't work. I told one guy on my last trip in July who wouldn't stop following me down the beach, after I told him repeatedly I'm not interested, that I wasn't going to buy anything or give him money, after he got more aggressive and demanding, that if he didn't get the **** away from me he was going to have a problem. That made him stop. I shouldn't have to do that! (I'm also not a large or intimidating guy, and for me to do that I was definitely outside my comfort zone). I also shouldn't be cursed at, in English or patois or any other language because I don't want to give money to beggars or buy a bracelet or drugs or be harassed. I shouldn't have guys yell after me and follow me down the beach because for the 100th time that day I was talked to and didn't stop. It's not disrespectful for me to not stop because you want to sell me something - it's disrespectful for THEM to not accept a pleasant "no thanks!" and a wave and keep pushing it beyond that.
How about some RESPECT for the tourists who are there pumping the jamaican economy full of money? Those who are actually outside the AIs are the last people they should be harassing - they are the ones most directly contributing to the local economy instead of giving their cash to AIs for it to be sent back to Spain or wherever the AI owners are from. That money certainly isn't staying in Negril or JA in general.
Yet I still go back, twice a year most years... What's different is when I want to go bar hopping or walking the beach, I do it alone - my wife stays behind and reads her book because she just can't take it. I spend less time looking for out of the way places to eat and drink, and fewer people are getting some of my tourist dollars.
If anything can be done about the harassment it will be a boon for the legitimate businesses in Negril.
HarryS,
I agree that can be the case. On our usual winter trip we have our safe place, the portion of the beach that knows us and we are not hassled beyond the no thank you level. This summers trip was a totally different experience, different part of the beach with people that didn't know us. I dealt with it but was with someone new that made a statement that could be viewed as an offer to possibly buy something and it went down hill from there. I got him out of it but it was an ordeal and I don't want to do that again.
That being said we are booked for February and are taking newbies. May need to offer a little more advanced education prior to the trip. It'll also be back in our winter spot.
Sorry but I must add that this was at night on the beach. We didn't have any problems beyond the norm during the day.
I like to stay at new places each trip, at different areas of the beach and cliffs so maybe that's why I'm not recognized and get bothered more. Sometimes we will stay at 3 different hotels in a 10 day trip, and in that respect when we arrive at each hotel we are "fresh meat" and I deal with the same questions over and over... just got here? Where are you staying? How long? When are you leaving? All questions that are being asked to gain very specific information about me, and not to be friendly. I have learned not to give specific answers to these types of questions. We're staying "down the beach" or "on the west end" and I always say we are staying "for a while", never telling locals when we're leaving. I've read stories here of peoples rooms being robbed on their last night, when there just isn't time to do anything about it (like police reports and whatnot) due to having to catch flights. (Yes, I realize this is rare are far from the norm, but why take chances?)
You know what else I hate? When they act all insulted when you don't stop, that they just want to be friendly and chat, and that there must be something wrong with US because we don't want to stop and chat with strangers every hundred yards down the beach.
Lets cut the crap - they don't just want to chat, they aren't just trying to be friendly - they are trying to separate tourists from their money, and that's it.
Don't get me wrong - in our trips we've made friends with locals, vendors, business owners, and we look forward to seeing them each time we visit, hearing about their lives, and spending money in their establishments. We are not anti-social people, and my wife is always amazed that I'll strike up conversations with random people... but no one who has ever started off by harassing us in any way has ended up as our "friend".
Looking back at over three decades of travel, I have seen first Kingston then Montego Bay, Ocho Rios and now Negril transform into harassment zones for tourists. Anywhere wealth congregates then you find people who are prone towards easy money harassment techniques instead of taking the time to come on easy and friendly to make an honest dollar.
Sometimes we are our own worst enemies with the way we spread around our money by giving it to people without requiring some "Respect" or some equivalent quid pro quo in exchange. Sometimes we are too casual to bestow the term "friend" to people we casually know and that level of openness can become our Achilles Heel.
I live in and love Jamaica but I have weaned myself away from tourist areas for just this reason. I don't get this harassment problem where I live. When the Jamaican dollar was strong, it was a better place to vacation and harassment was not so common. We can hope that Jamaica will overcome its economic problems and that will result in the pressure being lessened between locals and visitors.
Peace and Guidance
I am pretty sure that my wife, my best friend and I are well known on the part of the beach that we stay at near the NBCC. We generally don't have much issues and the beach there is set far enough back that you can avoid most of the wandering type sellers. The ones we deal with we deal with all the time. We have our bread guy, we have our juice guy, we have our fruit lady and so on. What I find is that if we want to go down the beach that's when we start getting harassed a bit more. We stayed one year at The Palms and I had a bad experience with a guy. He was pissed off that I was smoking cigars, that I had brought from Canada, and declined to buy smokes or his dried out stogies. He got pretty heated and was going off on me. He didn't think I knew what he said as he figured me for just another tourist. But I understand patois fairly well. I finally had to get up out of my chair and tell him to beat it. We had friends sitting with us and they were getting uncomfortable with his aggressive attitude. For the rest of the week he would come to the edge of the property and say stuff but never directly at me as he would look off down the beach or out into the water. He thought he was so clever lol. I would just ignore him but its a prime example of someone who clearly doesn't understand how to deal with people. We are generous but we are creatures of habit and deal with who we deal with. I own enough Jamaica stuff to start my own store where I live and I refuse to smoke crappy cigars. I love Negril and Jamaica so I won't ever stop going there.
Harry...obviously no one is denying it's a problem and apparently a WORLD WIDE problem...not just a Negril problem. I live here, post on negril.com and shared a link so we could all be helpful in filling out the survey and sharing our views of the harassment...possibly to help reduce this issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryS
While it makes me sad that you are harassed so frequently...there really are people that aren't bothered at all whether they are first timers or seasoned travellers. I don't have an answer as to why some are bothered more than others but maybe the survey can help with this also.
Attachment 42234
I look like this and still get hassled! :P
Great pic, Crusher...I think it might be your sweet, innocent face though :D :D
lol....maybe!! :)
I filled out the survey though. Its a cool idea happy to support the research.
Survey done.
If the harassment gets too bad for your comfort, would a "nah badda mi" or "nah go mas" help or deteriorate the situation?
~Moose
Done
NoQuote:
Originally Posted by CosmicMoose
Tah, meaning it would not go over well?
Thanks
The "nah badda mi" might work after they got up off the ground from laughing at it coming from CosmicMoose. :p The "nah go mas" is not something that a tourist should say to a Jamaican anyways. "mas" is "master" and it is usually used by a Jamaican talking to his boss or to a slave owner. Where I live, it would usually be "nah go bossy" if a Jamaican were telling me he wouldn't go somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicMoose
"bredda" is a better word. Referring to someone as "brother" or I sometimes use "king" as it shows respect at the same time.
Patois is different all over Jamaica but if you don't know for sure what you are saying it is better to just use English (which they all understand) or not say anything at all and just use hand gestures.
My opinion only.
Appreciate the info Accompong, I was told that nah go mas was equivalent to chill out.
Thanks
~Moose
"mas" is one of those words that has several meanings. Sometimes with ganja is what a large amount is like "mass" or "massive". And, yes, it is sometimes referring to "more" like in your example. Kind of like in my youth we called a cigarette a "fag" and you know how that is negatively used now.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicMoose
A funny little story. When I was in Waterhouse a few years back with Marshall, a yout and Marshall were talking Patois very quickly and I thought he called the guy a "chump". I was instantly appalled and frightened as we were in a very dangerous area with some real gunman types around. When I got Marshall off to the side, I asked him why he called him a "chump". He laughed an said he called him a "champ". Buju's chune "Walk like a Champion" was very popular at that time and Jamaicans tend to use flattering terms for people (like Lion, Champ, King etc.) when they don't know them well just to be on the safe side.
I think your "nah go mas" is probably good in your context described but, again, it is best to not use any Patois that you don't know the exact meaning of for safety purposes. That is why even though I can chat some Patois, I use English around people I don't really know well. It has served me well living in several locations around the island where a small misunderstanding could cause you to be in big trouble.
Just my opinion. Others might not necessarily agree.
Peace and Guidance
Moose...if you get into a situation that has escalated and you no longer feel comfortable...approach someone that is working in the area ie. a bar owner, bartender, any of the other vendors on the beach or west end, security, etc. None of these people want this kind of harassment to happen and will always be glad to help out.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicMoose
There's always a bad apple in the bunch and the rest of us working in the tourism industry don't want anyone visiting to be fearful...don't ever feel afraid/embarrassed to have someone that lives here stop the bad scenario for you. No one expects to be compensated for this either...everyone is just happy to help out/make sure you're comfortable.
This is a small town...we virtually all know (of) each other here and who are the troublemakers. So, there is no need for fake patois...just be yourself.
Unless you are fluent in patios don't try to get in to a discussion with a higgler. If you are fluent you most likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bnewb
don't need the discussion.
There is no way to pretend.
Just do as Bnewb suggested.
Cap
Thanks for the suggestions everyone... Was thinking along the lines of when in Mexico the locals were pleased if you attempted to talk with them in Spanish. Always brought a smile on their faces.
~ Moose
No problem with trying to speak patios in a social setting and the Jamaicans enjoy your attempts all in good fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicMoose
But in the beach situation trying to ward off an aggressive higgler the "respect" thing isn't going to help
Cap
Patois is basically English with a few non-English words throw in for good measure. It is not like Spanish or any other "official language'. It can change from year to year and area to area.
Listen to Bnewb...
Go in august. I didn't see any tourists, and for that reason, no higglers either. Was kind of boring though.
Anyway, in 12+ trips. My wife and I have had 2 really negative experiences. I will say 2 times in 90 plus days I have spent in negril.
One time some dude started yelling at me for not buying his aloe our very first trip. You know what I did? I started yelling back at him.
The other time, this guy started screaming at my brother on providence road for not giving him a cigarette. That issue was nipped in the bud almost instantly by a local.
But I grew up and have lived in and around Philly or north Miami my whole life. I deal rude people every single day.
So for me, dealing with an ass hole 2 times in 90 days is a ratio I can live with. Lord knows I deal with more annoying people almost daily on real life and on the Internet.
So I guess it's about perspective for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flipadelphia26
LOL. And who has not dealt with a DB aloe guy? I'm with Flip as far as the issues vs day ratio. I have the same amount of trips to the island and can count on one hand issues that have occurred. And only twice was is not my or someone in my parties fault. Aloe guy getting a bit too close to my kiddo(dealt with immediately by a few large local dudes) and a rude boy at American Pie trying to intimidate a tourist. American Pie is mostly a local spot, so you can count that one out too.... Like Flip I live in an urban/suburban environment and deal with DB's nearly everyday. The vendors/higglers are a non issue. It's the crackheads and beggars that need to be dealt with.
A lot of what happens is due to how you carry yourself, just like anywhere else in the world.
Completely, 100% disagree. I'm a New Yorker. One who has friends in Harlem and used to take the subway there and home at 3 and 4am, never bothered once because I know how to carry myself. You know, that was an area back when I used to go (151st and Bdwy) where they would tell white people "don't be there after dark". I never, not once, in years, had a single problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by booger
In Negril, not the case. I'm glad Flip and Booger only had two run-ins in all their visits, but again it feels like you're blaming the tourists for what happens and not seeing the problem for what it is. Because you're at a "locals place" doesn't suddenly make it OK or understandable.
But to come and say it doesn't really happen all that often, and that it must be in some part due to the tourists actions is really not cool when people are saying that's not the case for them.
I guess when I want to walk the beach and not be bothered, that's somehow my fault when I'm harassed. And when I stop and have a conversation, and when I say "no thanks" and the vendor gets aggressive, that's also somehow my fault. Maybe I look like someone "easy to intimidate"? I'm 5'7" and 165lbs, and even though I'm not a big guy I don't get intimidated easily and I'm sure as hell not going to hand over money or buy stuff from you if you think that's a viable sales tactic. And touching me or my wife? in ANY way? Completely unacceptable. I don't care if you're just taking her hand, I KNOW it's not to be friendly - it's an intimidation tactic, and a way to keep people from moving on so they can continue to attempt to make a sale. Enough people hand over money or make purchases they don't want just to make that stop, and it encourages them to do it again.
And don't say I should be stopping to talk to everyone who wants to, otherwise it's disrespectful - It would take me two days to walk the beach and back if I stopped and had a "friendly conversation" with everyone who wanted my attention. They don't want conversation, they want money. I'm in sales, deal with sales all day, and the last thing I want on vacation is to be sold to, especially sold things I don't want and have no interest in. When a friendly "no thanks!" and a wave doesn't work, something isn't right.
The government of Jamaica can take measures right away to deal with the harassment of tourist but there seems to be no political will to do so.
In a country where political corruption is rampant who knows who is getting paid to keep the status quo.
HarryS is 100% spot on, from his critique of blaming the tourist when they are harassed to the transparent methods of the higglers!
I find this post to be a little confusing and troubling. Let me see if I understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by halfwaytree
Just what measures can the government take right away to deal with the harassment? Knock people over the head? Put them in prison? I would be interested in hearing what you would do if you had the power to try to fix it.
Jamaica is just one big market place. All over the island people sell openly in the streets, on sidewalks in front of stores, and that is not just from locals to locals but to tourists as well. We should not conflate "political will" with "economic necessity". People have to survive and have been struggling to do so as long as anyone can remember. Wherever you find a potential customer in Jamaica, you find one or more people who are more than willing to sell to them. This biggest issue for me is that what they are selling is usually cheap junk that either I don't want or need anyways. Of course, it is more of a problem or concern where money congregates like Kingston, MoBay, Ochi and Negril. Respect has to be earned and can't be legislated or coerced.
In Kingston, you see how Jamaicans handle it when dealing with other Jamaicans and they mostly pretend the seller just doesn't even exist and walk on by. Sometimes they stop and listen say "No Thank you" and walk off. I think the more you try to reason, discuss or get angry with them, the more of a problem you have. After all, this is their country and it is their problem to solve but like everything else it just goes on and on because they really don't see it as that big of a problem.
Political corruption is rampant. Who knows who is getting paid to keep the status quo.
Yes, there is political corruption but I don't think it could be called "rampant". Rampant is what it was but it has been getting better in my opinion.
This is what I find the most troubling. Who knows who is getting paid to keep the status quo. Just who gains by keeping the status quo? I believe that everyone would benefit if the harassment were to magically stop. For the life of me, I just can't imagine who would pay and who would get paid to keep the status quo. Any ideas on that halfwaytree?
Peace and Guidance
HarryS,
You can 100% disagree, but that does not make them wrong. Their experiences are as equally valid as yours.
Bnewb posted this survey thread because there IS a problem worldwide and they are looking for a solution. If you want the harassment to have a chance to be stopped, please fill out the survey. And did you even read the article? If you didnt, I would suggest that you do. To quote a very important part of the article:
"(Dr.) Nicely also argued that varying views about what constitutes harassment continues to pose a challenge.
"What is harassment, to me, might not be harassment to you so there is a lack of clarity as to which behaviours constitute harassment..."
So rather than accuse people here of saying "it doesn't happen!" or "just say no and it stops right away!" they must be either in denial, don't leave their AI resort, or are there so often they are "locals" and aren't bothered any more", quite possibly you have a different viewpoint/tolerance of the problem than others do. I am sure that some people feel your above quoted comments are harassing in their own way.
We run into people everyday of the week who say the harassment they experience is down from previous years. It is all in their perspective from their personal experiences.
I know about the "New York" way to carry yourself, having spent much time there when my sister lived in Astoria. But if I were to try to use that same attitude here, I would get myself in a world of trouble. Negril is not New York.
In both Flip and Booger's experience, locals came to their aid. Bnewb suggested to Moose to seek out a local if things feel out of control. That is great advice because it works.
And I agree that allowing you or wife to be touched when not wanted is unacceptable. I am not blaming the tourist, but that can be remedied. I would suggest that she doesnt allow them to "just take her hand" as you stated, but you take her hand instead. The hand holding is not an intimidation tactic but a transparent sales tactic. Being in sales, I find it curious you didnt recognize that immediately. What better way to get keep someone's attention!
As you do in sales, the point for the vendor is to make the sale to pay their bills and feed their families, not make new friends. If you do become friends in the long run, that is a nice bonus, but the point is the sale. When they realize that they will not be making a sale, most will move on to the next possible sale, just as you do.
Of course there are the occasional "bad apples" and even vendors who have simply had a bad day. Perhaps they didnt make their JPS bill money and their current will be shut off, didnt make enough money to get a new propane tank or they didnt make money to buy food to feed the family that day. That can put them in a fragile state of mind if you are a vendor living literally on the daily income you earn.
Please take the time to read the article and fill out the survey. This is a global problem and the survey can be a start to the solution.
Bravo Rob!!!
Accompong, you post an interesting question.
The guys that dot the beach selling their "product(s)". Are they all freelancing, with their own little slice of the beach or are many of them sub contracted out by a larger entity? It is that larger entity, or perhaps the person, or people he reports to that may have a relationship with those that govern. Palms get greased to keep things running "as is" without any enactment or enforcement of loitering laws or setting up a system of licensing those that can sell their wares on the beach.
I have no proof, but as a Jamaican who spent the first half of my life there I know the rabbit hole can run deep.
I realize how things run in Kingston, I understand how it works there but Negril is not Kingston. What is the reality in Kingston is not understood by those visiting Negril for a week or two.
Rob I respectfully take exception with some of your comments.
On one hand you state, "The hand holding is not an intimidation tactic but a transparent sales tactic." and then you quote Dr. Nicely, "What is harassment, to me, might not be harassment to you so there is a lack of clarity as to which behaviours constitute harassment...". Seems like you want it both ways. Although I somewhat agree with the relativism argument made by the doc, it does not hold up when, in my experience, I am cussed at & physically threatened by higglers. You can argue that it is not harassment but I am not buying it.
You may know the "New York" way to carry yourself, but I did not read anything in HarryS actions that define a NY way. To me his "NY" way is that he is not naive or gullible (i.e., street smart) and will not be smooth or rough talked into doing something he does not want to do.
I agree that there are many folks struggling to make an honest living and carry themselves in a responsible manner (relatively speaking, wink, wink), but unfortunately there are many that do not and these are most the ones who are peddling illicit goods.
HarryS,
I didn't say it doesn't happen or it didn't happen to you. I just said it doesn't happen to us. Or I don't perceive my normal experiences or interactions in Negril to be harassment, based on what I see and deal with almost every day here in the states.
As I clearly stated. It's all about perception.
And, I would never suggest "Stopping and talking to everyone". In fact, if you dont want to talk to or deal with higglers - don't break stride as you're walking. Either wave them off and or/say no. Or don't say anything at all.
Hell, I have sat with Rob and Lisa on the beach at the bar, and even they occasionally have someone come ask them if they want to buy some smoke, some woven basket or whatever.