Printable View
I read on geocaching.com that the lighthouse is currently having some "renovations" and you can't go up to the top right now. Is this true, and does anyone know for how long it will be closed?
We have been there and love the view (and lighthouses in general) but wanted to take our buddies there when we are in Negril Nov. 12-26.
I climbed the stairs of that lighthouse for a couple times over years. Each time I found that it was remarkable...indeed shameful, that paper records, from the 1880's were lying about, unprotected, to the seaside elements. These were weather reports that I could see...but maybe much more history there. Shame on the Jamaican Government.
Nice views from the top:
Attachment 46424
Nice pic VVHT
Papa,Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa Georgie
Hmmm, I don't remember seeing any records from the 1880's. The Lighthouse was built in 1894, so any records from the 1880's would have been taken up there a decade after they were written. This would probably make them duplicates, not originals.
I have been up there a few dozen times over the last couple decades. Between the Port Authority of Jamaica, Ministry of Transport and Works, the Jamaica National Heritage Trust and years of work by caretaker Mr. Johnson, they have kept it in working condition. Since last being renovated in the 1980's, new restoration work is overdue.
On a personal note, books we have from the 1960's are yellowing and becoming fragile to the touch. I cannot fathom paper from the 1880's lasting over 100 years with the rain, sea spray and hurricanes that the lighthouse has seen.
Perhaps you could give us a little more information about when, where and what you saw from the 1880's. I am curious why they would be there in the first place and how it is possible that they lasted so long.
OK, 1890's. I know I saw a date entry on a log which began with 18... Now I wish I had photographed it.
I'd of loved to see themQuote:
Originally Posted by Papa Georgie
Cap
Went through some of my pics from 2007 when I climbed the lighthouse the first time... came across this one of records, but can't really see dates on them... just very interesting to see (for us anyway!)
But I am still wondering if anyone knows if renovations/restorations are still occurring, and if the lighthouse is therefore closed at this time.
Attachment 46431
Thanks Georgia even those papers one dated 1968 should have been cared for. This is history of a great landmark just carelessly left laying around with no thought of it's historical value. Why doesn't it surprise me. I hope they were put away somewhere to be saved for future people to enjoy.
Georgia...we'll try to get up there today to check it out and cool pic...thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia
Though on the property numerous time, for some reason I've never been up to the top.
I just found a picture from 2007 of papers at the light house and enlarged one. It looks like 1898.
Regards,
Bob
Attachment 46437
Attachment 46438
Too cool, Bob...to see the old papers from so long ago.
Maybe I'm the only one...but I'm not sure why the Jamaican government needs to be berated from not maintaining barometric pressure paperwork from the 1890's...other than it's a kinda cool factor.
Just to add...
And, I'm with Rob...wth kind of paper did they use in that era that it's still around? I have a couple of old books from the '50's that I swear are starting to disintegrate here.
rjonsun,
Thanks for posting. I wouldn't have thought that those papers would still survive.
Temp, Barometric pressure. Dew point was calculated using a sling psycrometer.
Notice the temps seem to be in the English system
Neat stuff
Cap
March 1898! I wasn't seeing things! Thought my memory had failed me. :p
Yah, the records probably have no intrinsic, useful value. However they are an historical record. Part of the history of Jamaica. A civilized nation preserves its history. I suppose the Jamaican government is an easy target. Then, whom shall we berate, the lighthouse keeper?Quote:
but I'm not sure why the Jamaican government needs to be berated from not maintaining barometric pressure paperwork from the 1890's
I had the opportunity to work at our local historical museum. My job was to take a scrapbook of newspaper obituaries from 1919 and index all the names I found. It was truly an amazing experience. You would not believe how people died back then. The paper clippings were in perfect shape for being over 90 years old. Those obits where very valuable to researchers of our local history. Weather data from back then could be valuable to climate change researchers or other people doing hurricane studies. What some people might think as useless could be a pot of gold for other people. All of history is valuable for many reasons. I wonder where those papers in the picture are now.
I first saw them in 1992. They are probably still there.
Have a little experience with this subject as i live in the county that has the oldest continuous court records in the United States. The paper certainly look authentic and the ink does as well. Binded paper as in books are prone to rot as they hold in moisture but unbinded papers can last hundreds of years. The court records i speak of are over 350 years old and date well before the founding of our country. Anybody interested can search for these online. They are located in the Eastville courthouse in Northhampton County Virginia. To the question of weather and humidity.....well many will attest that a summer on a 11 mile wide, 90 mile long penisula with temps in the high 90s and humidity also in the 90 percent range for 3 months out of the year and our location surrounded by water will match Jamaicas pretty close. And although these papers are only weather records that in no way diminishes their historical value. Im surprised Rob that you dont see the importance of the Jamaican goverment needing to perserve these. After all they have gone thru a great deal of time and expense to collect and preserve hundreds of clay pipes from the Port Royal site. How do these one of a kind records not compare to hundreds of pipes. This type of history and the preservation of it so important to the idenity of a country. These are pure Jamican unlike pipes made for sailors in Denmark by the thousands for sailors that can be found all over the globe. Alright I am done ranting and apologize if I have upset anybody....was not my intention, but as a historian I felt the need to point out the importance of these records. After all if they were not interesting why did so many tourists take pictures of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa Georgie
This is from Wikipedia did not copy and paste very well but still readable.
Negril Lighthouse
South Negril Point LighthouseNegril LighthouseShow map of JamaicaShow map of CaribbeanShow allJamaicaLocationNegril PointWestmorelandJamaica[1]Coordinates18.2484318°N 78.3605111°W[2]Year first constructed1894[3]Automatedyes[4]Foundationa 14 feet (4.3*m) deep tank of water for balance and security during earthquakes[3]Constructionreinforced concrete tower[1]Tower shapetapered cylindrical tower with balcony and lanternMarkings / patternwhite tower and lantern[3]Height27 metres (89*ft)[4]Focal height31 metres (102*ft)[1]Light sourcesolar powerCharacteristicOne flash every 2 s, alternating red and white[1]Admiralty*numberJ5344[1]NGA*number14144[1]ARLHS*numberJAM-007[1]Negril Lighthouse*was built in 1894 1.5 miles (2.4*km) south south east of thewesternmost tip of the island*of Jamaica by the French company Bubbler & Bernard.[3]*It is one of the earliest concrete lighthouses.[1]Fresnel lens*in operation at Negril PointIts foundation is a tank 14 feet (4.3*m) deep, which is kept filled with water to keep the 20-metre (66*ft)[3](27 metres (89*ft) according to Rowlett)[1]*reinforced concrete tower balanced and secured in the event of an earthquake.[3]*The tower is topped with a lantern and gallery.[1]An automatic white light 30*m (100*feet) above sea level flashes every two seconds.[1]*The light was operated by gas initially, switching to acetylene in 1956 and solar energy in 1985.[3][4]Several adjacent one-story frame keeper's houses are staffed.[1]The site is a well-known attraction of the Negril area.[1]It is maintained by the Port Authority of Jamaica, an agency of the Ministry of Transport and Work
Ok, we can berate the Port Authority of Jamaica.
Too kool!
Onthecorner...Rob definitely did not say anything about the importance of "needing to perserve these" documents. Rob is a major history buff and would never say anything to that effect. Please go back and reread what he wrote.Quote:
Originally Posted by onthecorner
You might be more annoyed at me for saying and I'll quote myself...
"Maybe I'm the only one...but I'm not sure why the Jamaican government needs to be berated from not maintaining barometric pressure paperwork from the 1890's...other than it's a kinda cool factor."
I did not say anything in regards to what you're suggesting either...I'll clarify my annoyance a bit more.
It drives me crazy when a government that is limited in resources and money gets berated by people from a first world country and especially over saving barometric paperwork...this is still a developing country...and, they are trying their best with what they currently have...as has been pointed out with Port Royal.
And to jump to the conclusion that this paperwork has not been recorded somewhere is a bit premature. Shouldn't we get the facts before berating anyone.
And, for the record...I've worked in many museums...my family owned an antique business that also donated items of historical significance to some of these museums. I'm very aware of the importance of history...it's intrinsic value and it's cash value!! ;)
Just to add to Lisa's comments, if anyone feels the need to shame or berate anyone, make sure you blame the offending entity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa Georgie
If everything in the photographs are taken at face value to be true, the "uncivilized" country not preserving its records as Papa Georgie says would be none other than the British Empire. They had 64 years to preserve those daily weather records from 1898 , yet have been blamed for leaving them to the elements in the lighthouse. Please note, Jamaica did not gain independence until 1962. The British had ample time to handle the records correctly.
As Lisa pointed out, how does anyone know that the British didnt made copies of the original information? As Papa says, civilized countries do that and the British Empire was considered civilized, so that would imply that the British would have made copies and preserved that information.
I been have dealing with mounds of paperwork records for decades here and things are becoming more computerized everyday. What took months to accomplish in the 1990's now takes days.
Why "berate" when you could "big up"?
It doesn't surprise me that the 1898 records are still intact. I have at least a dozen books from the 1850's in my library. Many of the covers show heavy wear as they were used for sermon preparation, but the paper is still in great shape. I think it was in the 1930' & 40's when they started using the junk paper in paperbacks that deteriorated badly.
One other photo I found also from 2007.
Attachment 46439
Regards,
Bob
Very interesting about the weather records from 1890's ................ BUT what about the original question concerning renovations to the lighthouse and is it closed ?
Thanks Lisa - whenever you happen to be going by is fine... we won't be there for a few weeks yet. Worth a walk to the top for the views (and the exercise?) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bnewb
What I recall from my visit there is that the papers were on display for all visitors to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiemingus
There are three little cottages on the property. One of those should be turned into the mueseum where the records would be put in a glass case and not left out to be handled by people. This lighthouse and it's Fresnel lens are in excellent shape and a true treasure of the Jamaican people. The lens is the most important part of a lighthouse and the vast majority world wide have a Fresnel lens. Everyone who posted on this site and everything they said came from the heart a little criticism can go a long way to make people or governments aware of whats important and worth protecting.
Well said EddieMingus.Quote:
Everyone who posted on this site and everything they said came from the heart a little criticism can go a long way to make people or governments aware of whats important and worth protecting.
rjonsun,Quote:
Originally Posted by rjonsun
Thanks for the information. I wonder if the paper was made with hemp?
Wow, guard those papers before somebody gathers them 'em up and smokes 'em. :p
Georgia...we went by yesterday and the lighthouse was locked up and the keeper wasn't around or answering his phone.
It didn't appear that any work was being done...but that doesn't really mean much.
We'll try to get hold of the lighthouse keeper again this week.
Lol.....figured i would ruffle a few feathers....first my apologies to both Roband Lisa for miss qouting them.....but i stand by everything else i said....you can blame the british goverment for the first 70 years but Jamaica has had over 50 years to collect and preserve these. As far as making copies to preserve the information and leaving the originals behind? Yes you make copies, but you leave the copies behind and take the originals to preserve. And with all due respect Lisa, blaming or expecting a third world country who doesnt have the resources to accomplish this...are we really talking about a tank of gas and a day too come get them. And with all due respect to Rob, just because Jamaica was a british colony does nit make this a part of Jamicas history. Thats like saying that anything that happened before the war of Indepedence isnt american history. The jamican goverment has spent a fortune on the Port Royal project and it sank into the ocean before 1962. You seem to be implying that anything before that date isnt important and a part of the islands history and was the responibility of the british goverment too preserve. Guess we should bill them for the jamestown excavations. I have a private message tellingme too tread lightly as i will have my posting privlages revoked or even booted from this site but do what you must. I have a Masters in history and have been all over the US and participated in digs and the preservation of history.These deserve more attention then you are willing too concede. You cant just blame the british or use the excuse that Jamaica as a third world countrydoesnt have the resources. Its as simple as coming and retrieving them and a simple vacuum sealer, a common kitchen item. Kick me out if you want, but do me a favor.....instead of dismissing them how about simplychecking if tbey are still there and if tbey are make a few calls.
Onthecorner...as you can see in my post above yours...we have been making some calls and even attempted to visit the property.
Being a historian you know it's more than a tank of gas and a vacuum sealer...I don't think I need to say more on that topic.
I respect that this is important to historians and history buffs...but from my perspective and out of respect to those living here and sadly so many people living on very little, I find that preserving barometric pressure papers to be on low priority and something that doesn't need to be overly criticised. My feathers were ruffled when the word "uncivilized" was used to describe a place I've chosen to live. That's just my opinion...maybe a little more personal/sensitive from my stance...but that's how I feel/see it.
Not that I should speak for Rob (I know he's really busy at the moment)...but I'm not sure why someone would get kicked out for their opinion here...there is one heck of a lot of leeway on Negril.com unlike most other sites. The person that messaged you must not know or understand how truly nasty you have to be to get kicked off here!
Onthecorner thank you so much for sharing your expertise on history. I had the opportunity to work at our local county historical society mueseum. 50 hours of community service, best punishment I ever had. I stayed on after fulfilling my obligation to society. I researched the history of our counties first settlers in 1834. I've always been a history buff only class I got A's in. History is what defines and guides a society and is one of the most crucial things to protect and preserve. The Jamaican government would be well served by a small group of full time employees devoted to nothing else but preserving all the historical sites and artifacts. I'm fully aware they have museums here so the people may already be in place to form this group. I went to an aqueduct and dam built by the Taino people 100's of years ago. It was in the woods in a beautiful place and only the locals know about it. That would make a great eco/history tourism site. Any how one love to all and embrace your history.
Onthecorner,Quote:
Originally Posted by onthecorner
First, thank you for apologizing for attributing to me a comment I never made. Accuracy is important, especially for historians.
As a historian, I am sure that you are aware that climate does play an important role in how historical documents need to be handled. Recently documents from the late 1800's were being preserved in the Turks & Caicos and they were first put in quarantine, then UV treated to deter any further mould growth and finally vacuumed thoroughly with a HEPA vacuum before being digitally photographed.
Please note that a kitchen vacuum sealer was not mentioned or used in the handling of these precious documents. And what you consider a common kitchen item is an extremely uncommon sight in any Jamaican kitchen. Comparing a first world lifestyle versus a developing country lifestyle is truly an apples and oranges situation. You take something common there and assume it must be common here. Making that assumption makes your position less credible. I love history, but I do want to keep in touch with the real world as it happens, the history of the "now", so to speak.
And I am sure that being a historian you are familiar with the British economic problems of the late 1800's. Britain's commercial and economic difficulties deepened with the "Long Depression" from 1873-1896, which was a prolonged period of price deflation causing severe business downturns which added to pressure on the British government to promote industry at home and forgo some funding of their world wide colonies. This put a strain on all aspects of life in the colonies including record keeping.
But the Brits did have the foresight to plan the Negril Lighthouse during that time period, which is now part of the Jamaica National Heritage Trust. I asked them to do a little research and they responded back with some interesting information.
The lighthouse keeper had to fill out those daily weather log books. And in true British fashion, they were to be done in triplicate. So one copy remained at the lighthouse with the other two originals being sent to Kingston. One copy was supposed to be sent back to England but the person I spoke with did not take the time to find out if they had been sent but did say that all the data was telegraphed to England.
When the Negril Lighthouse was made solar powered in the 1980's, the records being stored on the grounds were relocated to Kingston. But now that Negril was becoming a tourist destination, a few of the oldest copies that were in the best condition were left to allow visitors to "touch" history. Any other documents there are required to be left on the premises. These are also one of a set of triplicates, so while being an "original", they are not the only original. Georgia had it spot on accurate that the Jamaican government put them on display for tourists to see and touch.
So the British handled their responsibility of preserving the records as I suggested was their responsibility in the first place. In this thread, the Jamaican government has been shamed, berated and even the island as a whole has been said to be uncivilized.
I feel that those comments are far and above the most uncivilized thing about this thread.
And for a poster to make comments like "Yah, OntheCorner, I was going reply to the facile "blame it on the British empire" argument, but I figured it would be useless as we are in a "don't say nothin' bad about Jamaica" environment here" and "Don't say nothin' bad about the Jamaican government...I get it" and then delete them after allowing people to read them is bizarre behaviour done only to antagonize.
As for you "having to tread lightly" is absurd. The antagonist who made and then deleted the posts (hours later) that I mentioned above has not been banned, even with that strange behaviour.
No government is perfect and Jamaica is no exception. Recently there has been helpful complaints posted in threads about the garbage problems and the motorcycle issues. I have made sure the proper government agencies have seen them.
But in this case, Jamaica has been unfairly criticized for something that never happened, they didnt do and it wasnt even Jamaica's responsibility in the first place! All Jamaica did was allow visitors a chance to see and touch non-historically critical but actual weather records from the late 1800's. That is something that you cannot do everywhere but you can in Negril!
Interesting thread, surprised that something so seemingly minor can bring out so much passion. Look for the good things in life.
Thanks again Lisa - I do appreciate it. If you don't get the chance to swing by, no worries. We will likely check it out while there, and if not open, will just have to venture up the skinny ladder another time - more reason to come back in the future!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bnewb
Rule number 1 in business, customer is always right. Rule number 2 never argue with a customer. Rule number 3 always follow rules number 1 and 2 or your business will self destruct. I wish everyone the best.
Huh? Who and what are you addressing? No one from the Lighthouse was in this thread. And I don't think that they are considered a "business" yet as there are no "official" tours.Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiemingus