Why do jamaicans find it so easy to beg.

[Rob]

MissBlue,

Thanks for the explanation. Since I see the number of people who are successful in the transition from other countries to Jamaica being a very small percentage of the total of those who give it a try, just so I know where you are coming from, what would be your best guess as to the percentage you have seen move to the US and decided to stay in relation to the total number that have tried?

The percentage that I have seen make it here successfully is running in the 2% to 5% range, a very small fraction of those who have tried...

Lisa and I have been kicking around the numbers a bit, and since she moved here approximately 5 years ago, we can only think of one and possibly two (the jury is still out on that one) people who have moved to the Westmoreland/Hanover area and have successful businesses. We can count over 40 people that we know have tried...

[MissBlue]

oh i couldn't even begin to formulate even a guess - although I spend the majority of my time in the West Indian community - probably 90% of my friends and acquaintances are yardie & trini, with a few grenadians, guyanese and other neighbor island emigres in the mix - still - my sample size is so small, and so personal - just my own circle of friends -- I couldn't even guess about the overall percentages. Even though I'm peripherally friendly/familiar with hundreds of other emigres I meet and/or play music with in New York City, I don't know them personally well enough to know their private circumstances to even make a guess. I can tell you that this is a HUGE topic of conversation among them though, they are often equally as frustrated about this whole beggy-beggy business, as many of we tourists. many of them are constantly saying things like "if my ppl at home only knew how hard it was here ... they have no clue....they expect me to bring them the world on a plate when i go home, i work like a dog just to make it here, i don't have nuff to give away, i can't manage". Some of them actually don't go home to visit at all, too many stories of theft, and worse, among those who have - when going home for a visit, some even go so far as to fly to Barbados first and enter their home country from there, just so ppl don't see them getting off a plane coming from the USA.

Of my own small sample size, i'd say more than half are fully immersed, working, and successful. Some have become citizens, but most retain their own citizenship and are here on green cards/work visas. As for the rest, some do choose to stay but are barely making it, barely working, always asking others for help, never seem to have themselves together .... have never gotten their papers in order so they can get a real job.... i can only guess that some of them really had no clue how hard it would really be, and have never managed to quite get it together - yet they still stay. A few of my closer friends often talk about this also, even THEY wonder about their own countrymen who've been here 20 years yet can't ever seem to get it together, are miserable, yet still stay. And then there's those others who get here, stay for a while, and hate it; much prefer living they way they were brought up and go home. but as far as actual percentages i can't even guess.

[isthatuitsme]

I have lived and worked in Canada, lived and worked in England and now am living and about to begin work in America. I can honestly say, from my own personal experience, that the perceptions that we carry of other countries are just that until we have the experience of their lifestyle. How many times I have read that someone wishes to move to Jamaica and make their dream come true with others warning of the pitfalls and issues associated with that ideal. In my experience, the same can be said of any move to anther country....Although I tried with all my might to not have preconceived notions about living and working in England (a first world country like my home country) it fell far from the limited expectations that I brought with me. I had a job, a good job, but it was soooo expensive which caught me way off guard and they have different ways of handing things then "at home". On many occasion I caught myself thinking...if I were at home it woud be done different (and better or so I thought).
We all carry misconceptions about other societies, the way they run, the way their lives are. Living and working in another country other then our home country will always be different from how we thought it might work out, sometimes for the better and at times, a struggle. I loved living in England for the 5 years that I managed but was also glad when I made the decision to move back to North America (fortunately I have the status to be able to work in America as well as Canada). I laughed on more then one occasion as the myths and preconceived notions/generalizations that I held about the British were challenged by them, just by living and working with them.
The only thing that I can say is it matters how we handle the situations and how we treat others. Jamaicans and the citizens of other countries will always have idealized notions about how it is to live and work in America/Canada/England, just as some of us have ideal notions about living and working in their home country. Human nature, politics, the news, and the histories of each of these nations shapes the citizen's views of the world around them and once upon a time not so long ago, North America was the land of "milk and honey" and it was the place to be able to come and make a good living easily. Just as not so long ago, Jamaica was a cheap place to visit and the cost of living was much more manageable or so I have read.
As far as the "friends" in Jamaica....I am sure that some people are genuine, some are not (sounds like people at home also). Some people really do enjoy the company of tourist and making friends with them with no strings attached, but this could also be said of many other vacations spots and cities throughout the world. There is nothing in Jamaica that I have not seen or experienced in other countries including the poverty, "begging", and wealth. How many times have I been asked for money on the streets in America, Canada, England, Germany, France, too many times to count....so why is this behaviour or the social issues that Jamaicans face any different from any other country in the world? I can only ask....what were your (or my) own expectations??
This just a general statement of my own experience and how I look at a country when I visit/work/live in it ....

[Beach Bum]

My opinion might upset some people, but it is based on personal experiences. In my experience, Jamaicans feel much more entitled to money than any other culture I've experienced. They have no problem begging and asking for money and tend to do things like ask a person to buy them drinks, a meal, shirt, etc. They even get upset when you won't give them anything. This has VERY rarely ever happened to me in my travels besides Jamaica. Also, in terms of other cultures I've experienced, Jamaicans are lazy, and expect alot of help from tourists. I blame many of the travelers before us who've encouraged this. I am not saying there aren't hard working Jamaicans because there are, I am TRUE friends with a few. Of course I've experience begging in the US and Canada but there is certain pride and gratitude that I've experienced in other cultures that Jamaica simply doesn't have. I still love Jamaica considering all this, but I tend to stay away from the touristy areas and have no problem saying NO to anyone. I am a realistic, well traveled person and don't censor myself. I didn't read the entire thread so I'm not sure if this has been touched on yet. I've spent about 8 months in Jamaica over the last 6 years and have covered much of the Island. I have also traveled much of Central and South America as well as several other Caribbean Islands. I'm a backpacker and tend to hang with locals where ever I go. I know many other travelers who get this same vibe from Jamaica. Especially anyone who's ever experienced the hospitality of Asia or India. Again this just MHO and everyone is entitled to theirs.

[suzengrace]

While, I for one think yur Spot on Beach Bum...and I no longer even hang in Negril but out in the cockpit country-where this behavior is less apparent but the sense of entitlement as far as me(outsider) providing is still prevalent..And yes, I myself have traveled to other impoverished, 3rd world nations..and nothing comes close-even India -to amount of expectations that Jam's put forth on outsiders as far as giving is concerned.They seriously have it down to an art....

[suzengrace]

Like I've always said. Negril isnt' the only part of Jam..YOU can go to other areas of the country just as beautiful-if not more so-and not deal with the begging-or very watered down version..You love Jam but hate the begging and constant hassle-up on the cliffs is less but do some research and you;ll find other places that are just as "Jamaican" in regards to the culture but without all the tourist flare that Negril may have-but better yet..NO/Less beggy-beggy.. I for one can highly rec Port Antonio.

[Rob]

Beach Bum,

I am not at all surprised by your take on the people you meet in Jamaica. Considering the number of posts that have been removed from this board (and others) because of your recommending of illegal and dangerous activities to others, you dont seem, in my opinion, to be coming into contact with the more law abiding Jamaican citizens. When you run in a crowd who support themselves by illegal production and disregard the basic safety of others, then your experiences are based on a small fraction of the Jamaican people, not representative of the country as a whole.

Sometimes when expressing an opinion as well as forming one, it is often best to get as much information about the subject as possible. To say you didnt bother to read the whole thread before responding does speak volumes on your view of yourself and others.

Spending 8 months over 6 years in Jamaica, while more than many tourists, does not automatically mean that the experiences you have had are representative of the entire country. How much time have you spent in Kingston or Port Antonio or Mandeville or even Negril with people who actually insure their vehicles and dont rely on illicit drug production to make ends meet?

Perhaps by expanding your horizons a bit, you will see that Jamaicans are not lazy as you have stated. Perhaps you would find that Jamaican pride and gratitude is so strong, that it is often better than money in the bank. After a hurricane, when current and communications are down and the banks are not open, Jamaicans shine with the strength, resilience, compassion and pride that not all people can claim.

This is just my opinion....

[Accompong]

Spending 8 months over 6 years in Jamaica, while more than many tourists, does not automatically mean that the experiences you have had are representative of the entire country. How much time have you spent in Kingston or Port Antonio or Mandeville or even Negril with people who actually insure their vehicles and dont rely on illicit drug production to make ends meet?

On the head, Rob. I started out traveling around Jamaica for nearly 10 years before visiting Negril for a second time and only spent 3 days there the first time in 1983. Although bending of rules and begging is not exclusive to Negril or other touristy places, it does seem to provide a spot for those types to congregate and thrive without the peer pressure from the overwhelming majority of honest, hardworking Jamaicans that populate the rest of the island.


In rural Jamaica I have found the majority of Jamaicans to possess too much pride to beg just as here in So. Florida. Here I get begged almost as much as I do in Negril anyways!

Peace and Guidance.

[captaind]

Rob is right on mark with this re: BB's post

I have refrained from posting to this thread because my Jamaican experience is so different from most on the board. Remember I first came to the island to take a job and not as a tourist. I lived in an upscale section of Kingston (Beverly Hills) and socialized with the upper middle to upper class folks.

I only wish some of you could understand that much of Jamaican society is not like that which you see in Negril and other tourist areas.

I posted a picture of an event I attended last month where the men, including me, were dressed in tuxedos and the women in gowns. This was met with a certain amount of surprise as most of you have never experienced proper Jamaican society.

While it is true that remittances are an important part of the Jamaican economy it is not the only thing that supports the country.

I fear that many of you are judging this book by the cover you see on the beach in Negril.

Just my experience.

[Bnewb]

I only wish some of you could understand that much of Jamaican society is not like that which you see in Negril and other tourist areas.

While I agree somewhat....I want to clarify that there are aspects of Negril and other tourist areas that a tourist will probably never be exposed. As a tourist, most will only see the surface of these areas.
There are business and political organizations at the highest level of Jamaican society in every area of the island. But, on a vacation...you're not likely to encounter any of this.