# Negril.com Message Board Forums > Negril Message Board >  Lower Fuel Prices

## johng

Since the price of crude has dropped considerably in the past month (as low as $55 USD per barrel) what can we do as individuals / or as a class action to force Airlines to pass on the savings to the consumers (US) instead of huge windfalls for share holders??? For years every time the price in crude went up there was a new / another surcharge of some sort that we were charged.

Yes I know from time to time there are some good deals to JA (and other destinations) but for the most part it is expensive to travel. There must be something we can do??? Just askin!!!

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## BR Mon

The only class action is to stop flying..They own the business and can charge whatever the competitors will allow them to. Most airlines have been in the red for many years and several are no longer in business. They are having a good year but not cash rich.. Just about every airline except South West has had a recent re-organization.  I worked for an airline for 40 years. We bought fuel 6 months to a year in advance. My company is not feeling a windfall right now as they are burning fuel bought on the market almost a year ago. Nothing wrong with a good ole fare war which might be coming in the months to come. Companies will compete for market share in the good times and many times it by reducing yields (lower fares) to gain market...It is market driven...A bit of irony is that my Tickets this year to Mobay were the lowest fare I have paid in 15 or so years.

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## Chris B

The fuel the airlines use today was contracted a while ago.  It's a crap shoot for them to lock in their best price for continuing operations.

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## rjonsun

If you think the airlines are stickin' it to us, the best thing is to buy their stock and ride the wave of higher stock price plus dividend.  Just don't forget that eventually that wave will crash.
Regards,
Bob

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## Chris B

True dat, rjonsun... True dat...

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## johng

rjonsun and Chris B

Guess you guys are right!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-1...s-margins.html

It would be great if airfares come down even more = more jobs for Jamaicans if more people can afford to travel

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## negrilsand

Friends, you have been, for a long time, buying airline seats at below the actual cost to the airlines. For a few hundred dollars one can fly in safety and comfort from the cold climes to an island such as Jamaica. Now airlines are making a profit and may be able, after many years, to buy new and better airplanes and provide better facilities for your comfort. But the public is crying for cheaper fares! The airline employees lost their jobs and pensions. The ones employed no longer enjoy the  salaries that they once had. Now salaries are being improved but even the prestigious jobs such as pilots have do not match what other professionals earn. Air travel is one of the great bargains that we can enjoy. No place on the globe is that far away and at a price that most of us can manage if we really want to. Recline that seat-not so far as to hit my knees-and enjoy the flight.

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## Chris B

Negrilsand...

As much as I try, I can't bring myself to shed a tear for an industry that treats its flying customers worse than they treat their cargo.  Believe me, without the slim regulations they operate under, the airlines would manage their safety protocols as another input to their bottom line, subject to the bell curve driven calculations for every other input, including labor.

And those bigger planes?  Never happen.  Lighter, smaller planes, with us packed in like sardines, will continue to provide a more competitive and profitable model.  Even if they did go large, don't expect room and comfort... just much more of the same.  Bigger planes are for longer hauls.

Not being critical of your optimism... just trying to rein it in a tad... 😁

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## booger

> Negrilsand...
> 
> As much as I try, I can't bring myself to shed a tear for an industry that treats its flying customers worse than they treat their cargo.  Believe me, without the slim regulations they operate under, the airlines would manage their safety protocols as another input to their bottom line, subject to the bell curve driven calculations for every other input, including labor.
> 
> 
> 
> And those bigger planes?  Never happen.  Lighter, smaller planes, with us packed in like sardines, will continue to provide a more competitive and profitable model.  Even if they did go large, don't expect room and comfort... just much more of the same.  Bigger planes are for longer hauls.
> 
> Not being critical of your optimism... just trying to rein it in a tad... 


Chris,
You do have the option to purchase a seat with more legroom. As stated, I personally have not seen airfare this cheap in a LONG time. In fact, I was just looking at airfare from LAX to London, and it is roughly the same price I paid in 1991. Until teleportation goes mainstream, flying will continue to be the cheapest most convenient way to travel.

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## Lola

Chris B, negrilsand wrote "new and better", not bigger.  

I don't understand the complaints either, I find flying very convenient and usually quite reasonable (if not, check Business/First Class offerings for comparison, with their benefits). Pay around the same as early 2000's. 

Passing along a random comment made by an older gentleman while we were filling our gas tanks in Wisc, "A long time ago someone told me First Class is usually only about 25% more..."  Especially when flying short notice, I add.

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## Kahuna3

I expect the fuel surcharge will drop when the current fuel hedging contracts start to roll over. We will be looking at lower oil prices for the foreseeable future, so airlines will naturally pass along fuel savings in order to stay competitive. 
The exception to this will be for Canadian airline passengers. The Canadian airline market is ruled by a duopoly. We will continue to be overcharged for airfares just as we are for pretty well everything else, including gasoline.
Oh! - sorry, I shouldn't complain, sorry . . .

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## pamc12345

My fare this year was also the cheapest (or close to it) as I have ever paid in the 12 years that we have been going to Negril.  Plus it was a direct flight, and 2 free bags.  No complaints here!

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## negrilsand

Well, Chris as someone who spent 35 years in the industry, I may know a little about the facts. Obviously and unfortunately,you are grossly misinformed. Perhaps, you might take time to check the latest aircraft orders placed by the major airlines. I think that the term "right sized" might be the best to describe new equipment.One larger aircraft with decent loads is much cheaper to operate than two smaller aircraft with almost full loads. Delta airlines, for instance, has disposed of its regional jet subsidiary. They do as some other airlines still contract some routes to the regionals. The smaller airplanes were too small, inefficient, and uncomfortable. They have filled in temporarily with the  B-717 version of the MD-80,a rather comfortable airplane for average 3 hour flights.Fact is, most flights o Jamaica use newer B-737 or larger aircraft.These days on major airlines-not airlines such as Spirit Air  which delight in making the customer miserable-one enjoys clean airplanes with space to put their hand luggage and a carry on. Many flights have an inflight movie and WIFI. One enters the aircraft from a modern gatehouse via a nice jetway even in Jamaica. Please take a look at the taxes included on each ticket charged  to the passenger by the Jamaican government. Also check-on the internet- the amount paid by the airline to merely land at any Jamaican airport or any other airport. Then again check to see what the airlines pay to use the jetway and terminal.How can they charge the fares that they do and still make a profit. You are even given complimentary beverages and sometimes a meal in economy class. Now you can try as much as you can to tell me that airline customers are not getting a fair deal. If you wish you can drive a car to your destination or, in the case of Jamaica, you can find a boat out of Miami for almost the same cost as an airline ticket and spend a few days getting to Jamaica but I am fairly certain that you want to get to Mobay in 2 or 3 hours and have your luggage waiting! Further more I worked training aircrews. Safety was our number one concern and US airlines are firmly regulated in terms of safety. After all, pilots are the first to arrive at the scene of an accident.The US and in fact the world is experiencing the best safety record in the history of aviation. How dare someone with so little knowledge insult the integrity of American pilots. Never have I even had a suggestion from management that I compromise safety! Why are American pilots the most sought after pilots in the world. Many royals and other dignitaries abroad insist on American pilots. American flight training and safety and operating procedures set the standard for the aviation world and in fact are the ones used by  every airline in the world. Sir or Ma'am I suggest that you rein in your rhetoric and check your facts.

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## Chris B

Negrilsand, I certainly respect your experience in these matters, but please don't misinterpret my points.  It was not my intent to malign any airline employee, least of all the dedicated folks who are on the front line and in the air to assure our safety and comfort.  Reviewing my post will show how I dared not.  In fact, I personally thank all crew members I can as I depart a flight.

My comments were directed at the boardroom denizens and bean counters who keep coming up with more ways to nickel and dime us to death.  If that was your role in the industry, then I can understand your indignation at my comments, but I won't apologize for them.  The costs you note for gate facilities, taxes and such are given costs of doing business; but please don't imply that the airlines give the flying public something for nothing... they don't.  I've never met a corporate executive who liked a government regulation that required added expense or required his company to do anything that it should be doing in the first place.

My informed view comes from my personal experiences over many years as a consumer of corporate and leisure travel.  I've seen the evolution of the innards of an airliner from a fairly comfortable coach experience to what's become an obtrusive and dreaded timeframe to be tolerated rather than enjoyed.  Same cabin, more seats, less comfort, more profit... that is the continuum.  Customer satisfaction surveys have born this out year in and year out.

As for my cynicism on corporate intent, well that comes from years of observation and time served in my own middle management hell, and I'm only too happy to espouse upon it any time I get to vent, now that I'm retired and earned the right to do so.  Anyone who believes that corporates are keen on serving their customers at the expense of their stockholders is living in a long lost past.

Reactionary?   Probably.  Misinformed?  That depends on which view, and which information we choose to review.  But getting back to the original topic, will airfares drop because of a temporary glut?  Opinion... The savings will not trickle down to the flying public.

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## negrilsand

The airline industry is quite different in many ways than say General Motors for instance. GM can have a flaw in their product that can be ignored for years. Hundreds of lives can be lost. When the outrage finally emerges, GM can try to ignore it, hire expensive public relations people and parade nonsense speakers before congress. GM then minimizes their cost by hiring the best lawyers to fight in court. GM's lobbyist fight to minimize the impact of legislation. Now look at the airline industry. Firstly, the airline is selling service which they truly pride themselves in and must provide at a certain level to maintain the very slim profit margin. The last time that I checked no airline even achieved a 10% profit margin. Secondly and most importantly, the airline employees including every person in management is right there with you on the airplane. I would guess that the CEO and president averages being on an airplane at least 300 days a year. Further more, our friends, close family and relatives are riding our airplanes. Aviation people can be close, we never forget those that we have lost, even those from rival airlines.We are not sitting in an office in Detroit removed from the tragedies that might be caused by a bad product or decision. I know that I tried to be at the boarding door for each flight and looked every passenger in the eye as I welcomed them on board. Every single time, I sat down in the cockpit and had images of laughing kids with their families and sometimes the images of a grieving family going to a funeral. I will tell you that there was an extra weight of responsibility on me. The CEO was not sitting in the cockpit but I know that he was available 24 hours a day dreading that call in the middle of the night informing him of some serious operational problem. The buck stopped with him and with every person involved. Within hours of any accident the airline is swarmed with FAA inspectors. Every minute detail is examined. How did the pilots get to the airport for their duty day. What did they eat and drink. How did they sleep the night before their duty period. Where they properly trained in every little procedure. I could go on and on. My airline once had a tragic accident.Many people were killed including some very close friends of mine. With in months of this accident, we had two procedural errors in flight. My FAA counterpart in a conversation told me bluntly that if you have another incident anytime soon, we are looking at suspending your operating certificate. The consequences of management policy is serious and airline executives can be tough, but to imply that they would in any  way sacrifice safety to benefit the bottom line is just silly and dumb.That would ,on the part of the airline, to be completely self defeating. Enough!

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## johng

negrilsand & Chris B,

Both very interesting points of view!!! I didn't intend to create such a debate (my bad). 

My initial posting was based on a Bloomberg Business Report (Read Below)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-1...s-margins.html

which states that the Airline industry has seen record profits and are likely to "REAP" an additional 25% profit in 2015.

 "Mergers including the formation of American Airlines Group Inc. (AAL) out of AMR Corp. and US Airways Group Inc. have seen three main network operators emerge in the U.S., helping to rein in capacity and give carriers better control over fares."

I flew JFK to Munich (RT) in September (14) and paid $1400 for a coach ticket (21 day advance purchase) roughly a 70% increase over 2013, same route , same airline, same class. I checked for the fun of it three days before departure and the same ticket was now $2000???? I am sure there is some explanation that makes sense but not to me.

I understand the exorbitant taxes and fees added to the base ticket prices but I still find fares to be higher than many can afford. furthermore there were about 10-15 empty seats in coach, 5 or so in business class. Why isn't there a "Stand By" opportunity for passengers willing to wait and see for a lesser fare to fill otherwise empty seats????

Many might say I'll pay whatever it takes to get from point A to point B (especially Jamaica) and perhaps many have found the lowest fares in years. My point was only that Gasoline is cheaper at the pump, Heating Oil is the lowest in several years, why shouldn't there be savings for airline passengers as the airlines too are benefiting from the drop in oil prices (all companies buying bulk fuel purchase futures contracts, yet the savings at the pump and at home are immediate not 6 months down the line).

My only point being that if the airlines can offer less expensive tickets and make a symbolic "Olive Branch" gesture to its customers I believe it would stimulate more business and result in trickle down advantages to everybody, meaning more spending and more jobs. 25% percent of zero is nothing for everybody involved. Just sayin!!!

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## Jamadian

$900 for the two of us out of Toronto to Jamaica. Last year the fare was $1157. Just sayin...

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## negrilsand

Computers are wonderful devices. Airlines use a procedure-program- called "yield management". The objective is to sell seats to derive the maximum profit per average seat yield. So early on weeks before a flight date, seats are offered at a certain price, as demand increases or decreases, the price is adjusted. Typically as the date approaches, demand increases as there are passengers needing to travel on short notice so the price increases. Ideally, every seat will be filled at the optimum price. But this is not a perfect bit of science so a few seats will be empty. On average however, the maximum yield per seat on average will be achieved. It works! That is why the person setting next to you may have paid much less than you or much more than you. For those that think that the airline should pass on their saving as per decreased oil prices and resulting increased profit in the form of a reduced fare, perhaps the airline might do this if you agreed to fly your usual flights as fuel prices increase while paying an increased fare to ensure that the airline made the same profit as before. I doubt that you would agree to that.

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## dash

For those that think that the airline should pass on their saving as per decreased oil prices and resulting increased profit in the form of a reduced fare, perhaps the airline might do this if you agreed to fly your usual flights as fuel prices increase while paying an increased fare to ensure that the airline made the same profit as before. I doubt that you would agree to that.

Haven't we done that by paying "fuel surcharges"?

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## melon8r

we have just priced tickets and they are almost double last March. They have added $330 in taxes since.  Prices are way up!!!!!

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## TAH

> we have just priced tickets and they are almost double last March. They have added $330 in taxes since.  Prices are way up!!!!!


Day of the week matters a lot. My flights have stayed essentially the same price for several years now...

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## negrilsand

Well, I thought that someone might point out the fuel surcharge. That is a valid point, but the fuel surcharge is added on when fuel prices have a rather drastic increase and do not make up for the increased fuel cost to the airline. I personally think that the fuel surcharge while not immediately added to the ticket price, is very slowly-too slowly- removed. The increased taxes and fees charged to the airline and to the passengers have been one of the big factors in increased ticket prices. In years past, when I traveled internationally, my airline as a courtesy, paid my international taxes and fees. The cost increased to the point that they could no longer do that. I was shocked when I was billed at the end of each month for those taxes and fees. I have seen fares offered by my airline from a US city to Montego Bay where taxes and fees added up to one  half of the total ticket price. From that remaining half of the fare the airline had to pay for insurance, fuel, other airport fees,labor cost. food and beverage cost and the amortized cost of a 60 to over 100  million dollar aircraft. Sometimes, I think that the airline business is some sort of cash flow scam! We, the American middle class and working class which are pretty much one and the same, are so fortunate to be able to enjoy air travel that was once primarily the domain of the well off business men and the so called  "jet set". An older friend of mine that flew as a pilot from New York to Europe in the 1940's and the 1950's said that the passengers were almost exclusively the very wealthy and movie stars. Then with no security threats, passengers were welcome in the cockpit. I was fascinated with his stories of meeting people such as Charles Lindberg, and just about every major Hollywood star. In fact, he was a rather good looking guy, and as a result of meeting so many stars and Hollywood big shots, he was signed to a contract with a major studio and appeared in some productions. When I flew with him as a young pilot, we teased him about being a "ham" when he made PA's using his stage voice.

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## johng

Yesterday Oil prices fell again to recent record lows. Several perspectives have been offered on this thread. Below are two articles that seem to make sense????
I just find it hard to believe that over the course of last few months the fall has been so dramatic!!! Looks to me like we were REALLY over charged (everybody) for petroleum products for the past 5 or 6 years??? Despite political debate on this subject from my view this cost (to power the world) has been costly and unnecessary to the world economy. I know I am not an economist or petro scientist so the why and how perhaps escape me but it all seems to reveal the inevitable truth. Too bad it takes close to economic collapse to bring about some changes.

As I said before many more people would travel if they could afford it more easily (federal student loans 6.8%, utility increases, insurance costs, food, etc.... all up). Perhaps to many this is not a concern but for others (like myself and family) travel and vacations take a back seat to paying the bills!!!

Wishing everybody a great 2015 and hopefully see you in Negril again!!!

http://theweek.com/article/index/273...doing-the-same
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0KE06V20150106

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## dash

Wish it were that simple Johng. So much politics and taxes involved. High prices have been very good to the economy of some. I think consideration of retribution for the Russian actions in Crimea and Ukraine may have some effect. The Russians are hurting bad by sanctions and low oil prices. Now look at the rejuvenated US dollar and how much further your dollar goes in other countries.

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## TAH

You're on the right track dash. Russia is only a part of this though, these are major power plays between world economies. The prices falling this low are devastating US shale production, as it just isn't profitable at these prices. We'll see how long the Saudi's can afford to keep this up.

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## johng

dash & TAH,

Like I said on my post Politically speaking the debate can be long without conclusion to who is right or wrong. My original question on this thread was what can we do (if anything) as individual citizens to have some impact?? Don't vote??? Protest??? Write letters to politicians??? Become politicians???

It becomes clear to me that Russia and Iran are suffering currently by sanctions and now the crash in oil prices. Unfortunately we receive our world news through the mouthpieces of the media so the factual content can be questionable.

Dash, simple it is not nor do I pretend to have answers. Many have made a killing in the Markets recently (maybe not the past week) but for me as previously stated I don't have extra funding to invest at the moment.

Here in New England the economy is still very precarious despite the constant rhetoric from the politicians stating positive growth.

Not wanting to turn this board or post into a political commentary I will close by saying Jamaica is a great country, Negril is a beautiful beach town and the Jamaican people are some of the nicest I have ever met. Let's hope that the island and the people benefit by the current downward trend in Lower Fuel Prices!!!

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