Working hard for change...we can help!

[Homebrewer]

Oh I want to amend those last three words. It also includes a fruit vendor who refused to give me change after a purchase as well as the bracelet guy, who upon seeing me for the first time on a recent trip, started yelling at me from 10 feet away because I did not purchase a bracelet on my previous trip. I could go on with the examples. Is this the normal way to conduct business in Jamaica? Do I need to get on the relativism bandwagon?

He might have said that to many as a sales tactic. Perhaps he never actually remembered you at all and was trying to guilt you into buying a bracelet.

[halfwaytree]

Accompong, you post an interesting question.

The guys that dot the beach selling their "product(s)". Are they all freelancing, with their own little slice of the beach or are many of them sub contracted out by a larger entity? It is that larger entity, or perhaps the person, or people he reports to that may have a relationship with those that govern. Palms get greased to keep things running "as is" without any enactment or enforcement of loitering laws or setting up a system of licensing those that can sell their wares on the beach.

I have no proof, but as a Jamaican who spent the first half of my life there I know the rabbit hole can run deep.

I realize how things run in Kingston, I understand how it works there but Negril is not Kingston. What is the reality in Kingston is not understood by those visiting Negril for a week or two.

[Accompong]

Accompong, you post an interesting question.

The guys that dot the beach selling their "product(s)". Are they all freelancing, with their own little slice of the beach or are many of them sub contracted out by a larger entity? It is that larger entity, or perhaps the person, or people he reports to that may have a relationship with those that govern. Palms get greased to keep things running "as is" without any enactment or enforcement of loitering laws or setting up a system of licensing those that can sell their wares on the beach.

I have no proof, but as a Jamaican who spent the first half of my life there I know the rabbit hole can run deep.

I realize how things run in Kingston, I understand how it works there but Negril is not Kingston. What is the reality in Kingston is not understood by those visiting Negril for a week or two.

halfwaytree. I have known you (sort of) from another venue on Jamaica and have always appreciated your insights. So Big Up to you my friend.

I can't honestly answer your question about the freelancing vs the sub contracting. Perhaps someone closer to the Negril scene like Rob or Lisa could comment as I live (as you probably know) deep in the Cockpits and rarely visit Negril area.

I have always sort of assumed that the higglers were mostly operating on their own from the few dozen I know that do just that. I have always admired the Jamaican Spirit for coming up with ways to make money when opportunities are limited.

Even after living almost a year in Seaview Gardens Phase II in Kingston I wouldn't venture to say I know "exactly" how things run there either but it is certainly a different dynamic when mostly Jamaicans are in a group compared to adding tourists to the mixture.

You have me thinking about this and now I want to find out for myself how the higglers run in Negril and who's palms are getting greased just to cure my own case of wanting to know more.

Thanks for your answer.

Respect.

[wha gwan]

Rob I respectfully take exception with some of your comments.

On one hand you state, "The hand holding is not an intimidation tactic but a transparent sales tactic." and then you quote Dr. Nicely, "What is harassment, to me, might not be harassment to you so there is a lack of clarity as to which behaviours constitute harassment...". Seems like you want it both ways. Although I somewhat agree with the relativism argument made by the doc, it does not hold up when, in my experience, I am cussed at & physically threatened by higglers. You can argue that it is not harassment but I am not buying it.

You may know the "New York" way to carry yourself, but I did not read anything in HarryS actions that define a NY way. To me his "NY" way is that he is not naive or gullible (i.e., street smart) and will not be smooth or rough talked into doing something he does not want to do.

I agree that there are many folks struggling to make an honest living and carry themselves in a responsible manner (relatively speaking, wink, wink), but unfortunately there are many that do not and these are most the ones who are peddling illicit goods.

[Rob]

Rob I respectfully take exception with some of your comments.

On one hand you state, "The hand holding is not an intimidation tactic but a transparent sales tactic." and then you quote Dr. Nicely, "What is harassment, to me, might not be harassment to you so there is a lack of clarity as to which behaviours constitute harassment...". Seems like you want it both ways. Although I somewhat agree with the relativism argument made by the doc, it does not hold up when, in my experience, I am cussed at & physically threatened by higglers. You can argue that it is not harassment but I am not buying it.

You may know the "New York" way to carry yourself, but I did not read anything in HarryS actions that define a NY way. To me his "NY" way is that he is not naive or gullible (i.e., street smart) and will not be smooth or rough talked into doing something he does not want to do.

I agree that there are many folks struggling to make an honest living and carry themselves in a responsible manner (relatively speaking, wink, wink), but unfortunately there are many that do not and these are most the ones who are peddling illicit goods.

Wha,

I sympathize with your situation and frustration, that is why Bnewb started this thread and it was posted here. The article and survey are applicable to Negril and elsewhere in the world. Please fill out the survey and help become part of the solution.

But I take exception to those who havent shared your's and HarryS' experience essentially being labeled liars. Their lack of being harassed is equal to your experiences. Just because they arent hassled doesnt mean there is no harassment any more than your being harassed means everyone is harassed. Each persons experience is equally valid.

What happened to you, by anyone's definition is harassment. No one can logically argue against that. I also stated that HarryS and/or his wife being touched when not wanting to be touched is also unacceptable. That would be harassment as well. While the transparent sales technique of hand holding is harassment if you dont want to be touched, it is not an intimidation tactic, but a sales tactic. Label it for what it is, dont fabricate some motive behind a blatantly obvious sales tactic.

And HarryS said " I'm a New Yorker. One who has friends in Harlem and used to take the subway there and home at 3 and 4am, never bothered once because I know how to carry myself. You know, that was an area back when I used to go (151st and Bdwy) where they would tell white people "don't be there after dark". I never, not once, in years, had a single problem."

To me, having spent time in NYC, this does define a "NY way". There would be no reason for him to write it otherwise. He wanted us all to know he knows the NY way.

I am not sure how first time visitors (read the latest trip report) can have such a great time and little hassles as do countless others, and yet two separate repeat New York visitors are having such an incredibly hard and harassed time. I am not sure, but perhaps the condescending "(relatively speaking, wink, wink)" may or may not have revealing qualities.

And I cannot even imagine what would cause a "bracelet guy" to remember someone and yell at them on their first day back from 10 feet away. Hundreds of visitors dont buy from him and other bracelet vendors everyday and I have never heard of this happening before....

[Flipadelphia26]

HarryS,

I didn't say it doesn't happen or it didn't happen to you. I just said it doesn't happen to us. Or I don't perceive my normal experiences or interactions in Negril to be harassment, based on what I see and deal with almost every day here in the states.

As I clearly stated. It's all about perception.

And, I would never suggest "Stopping and talking to everyone". In fact, if you dont want to talk to or deal with higglers - don't break stride as you're walking. Either wave them off and or/say no. Or don't say anything at all.


Hell, I have sat with Rob and Lisa on the beach at the bar, and even they occasionally have someone come ask them if they want to buy some smoke, some woven basket or whatever.

[Bnewb]

Hell, I have sat with Rob and Lisa on the beach at the bar, and even they occasionally have someone come ask them if they want to buy some smoke, some woven basket or whatever.

And I would be very disappointed if they didn't ask...more often annoyed when I can't find the vendor on the beach that I'm looking for...pepper shrimp guy and popcorn man are never around when I want a snack...lol...love those guys!!!

[Flipadelphia26]

And by the way, I think the begging and higgling on the beach has decreased significantly since the Jetskis were banned.

[wha gwan]

I for one appreciate Bnewb & your efforts to have this discussion.

I also have only described some of my not so pleasant experiences and have not doubted or challenged other members opinion. I fail to see how I have labeled other people as liars. I do not think that it is a fair or thoughtful comment on my contribution to this discussion. Nor have I implied that everyone is harassed or all my experiences involve harassment.

If you interpreted my (relatively speaking, wink, wink) as being condescending to you, then I must apologize since that was not my intention. It was a (failed!) attempt at sarcasm.

"And I cannot even imagine what would cause a "bracelet guy" to remember someone and yell at them on their first day back from 10 feet away." Makes me laugh just thinking about it! Signing off...

[Rob]

Wha,

This is an important topic and that is why we have the survey and article linked. We also want the topic to remain as real as possible.

One of the first things HarryS did was challenged other members, going as far as saying that they are in denial which by definition means their statement is something not true.

When you said "HarryS is 100% spot on, from his critique of blaming the tourist when they are harassed to the transparent methods of the higglers!", I took that to mean that you were agreeing with what he was saying 100% including calling other members liars.

I must thank you now for clarifying that you do not 100% agree with HarryS being spot on with his comments.

Sarcasm is often a tough thing to make clear on the Internet, thanks for the apology but it is unnecessary for me as I never thought for a moment you were being condescending towards me.

And the bracelet thing makes me scratch my head more than laugh...

Thanks again for clearing things up.