Customs Question

[Ohio_Buckeye_1]

Believe me, doing construction on a house and planning a wedding to a Jamaican - I support the JA economy more than you'll ever know. LOL.

This is way off-topic from OP, but I'll get out my soapbox for this one reply.

Yes, all gov'ts protect their economy with tariffs - but the usual amounts are a small percent of the value of the item. There are political fights all the time in the USA whether or not to impose them, or to raise them - trying to balance protecting domestic sources vs harming the people by artificially inflating prices. It's the age-old balance of how high do you set prices before you start losing customers. Whole economic classes are taught on this "economic elasticity". If private industry gets it wrong, they lose customers to competitors - if gov't gets it wrong, there are no competitors, but they cause a black market to form. You're starting to see it with cigarettes in the USA (I'm a non-smoker, just talking economics not efficacy).

My opinion is JA has gone way past that line. In Jamaica, the gov't has such bureacracy and adds such a high duty (I have experienced it at over 100% the value of the item with electronics) - that the gov't is standing in the way of improving their economy. Thoses tariffs, taxes, duties, etc are NOT just on us tourists bringing down goods - it's also on the imports sold by retailers. The prices on electronics are double and triple the costs in USA - and those prices aren't charged only to tourists, Jamaicans have to pay them too - that is hardly helping the people. (I focus on electronics because that is what my experience in JA has been with)

Improving their economy and providing jobs would help their people more than any retail jobs protected by tariffs. And around the world, it's lower taxes and smaller bureacracies where economies are flourishing. Yes the gov't needs funds to run - but if they eliminated their excessive bureacracy, they would have a much less bloated gov't to fund.

Back to the black market, In JA you see it with all the corruption in the system. Because the system is so-filled with rules, red-tape, and fees - it's almost become part of the official system for many bureacrats to just fish for "fees to expedite" the process (most of the world calls it bribes). There is so much corruption - the gov't doesn't trust itself to have just one official handle a transaction. Try looking up the rules to bring in imports legally - like a JA business would do. It's why you have to go to agency A for one form, agency B for some approval, agency C to pay the fee, back to agency A with the stamps on the form from B and C - it's mind-boggling. I know the gov't is trying to clean that up, but their first step should be to eliminate what causes that corruption - excessive bureacracy and fees.

To sum it up, I just feel the lion's share of the hiked up prices in JA is due to the duty (aka taxes) and other fees the gov't adds to get their "cut" - not to protect domestic sources or help the people. If I thought paying these dutys was helping the people - I wouldn't complain about it so much. I just feel I am being forced to contribute to keeping the corruption going - and is actually hurting the people in the long run, not helping. I could be wrong, but is my opinion for the above reasons.

This pet peave against paying these taxes/duties has to be put in context. I try to do my part by giving directly to the people - and hate so much giving it to the gov't. When there, I tip my hotel maid every day what my fiance says is too much. I go out of my way to pay people who want to do some service or task for me - that I could really do myself. I would rather do that than just giving to the guys asking for a handout.

Soapbox is put away again.

[Lola]

Buying there creates more jobs (agreed) but Higher wages --???

[Ohio_Buckeye_1]

If you bring an electronic item down for your personal use, customs expects you to take it back with you. If you do not take it back with you, this is not what is keeping with the "personal use" concept (please dont confuse this with something that you can "use up" like soap, shampoo, etc). So yes, if you fail to bring back an electronic item that was declared as "personal use", whether you want to believe it or not, you are breaking the law.

I know about that half of the customs rules - tourists bringing down personal items on vacation. Most questions and answers on this board are focused on that category - for obvious reasons.

But there is a whole other set of customs rules if you are moving there (even half-time) and bringing your household items there. When doing that you are obviously not going to take the items back off the island when you travel back-and-forth between USA and JA. I thought some of the people on this board might have gone thru that and could explain some of THOSE rules to me. I am sure I can't just explain to the customs official that I am engaged and am building a house and bringing down goods that are for my personal use only - not gifts or for resale. I know once married, and we both are eventually "legal" in each others countries - I will be able. But is there something I can do in between those two conditions?

Some people on this board have moved to JA without marrying a Jamaican. I was hoping to get benefit of their experience with customs rules. Or from people who were in the same condition for a while I am in - engaged and/or building a house and therefore wanting to bring down household items - before becoming "official" with a TRN, etc. Maybe there's a bright line - nothing doing before marriage vs all allowed after marriage. But Jamaica just seems like it always has gray areas - if you know where to go and fill out the right forms. That's what I am asking about.

[SweetSue]

Just so you know, some things don't have to wait. You can get a TRN now w/o being a full time resident or citizen. It is your first step towards being able to do business, i.e. open a bank account, buy property, pay taxes, etc. in Jamaica.

[Ohio_Buckeye_1]

and re Courts. Believe me I blamed my fiance more for going to Courts than Courts for doing business - no one forces you to go there. She bought something there the first day she started a job that was going to take 3yrs to pay. Then within 2 weeks things turned out she couldn't work for that boss anymore. And you know how hard jobs of any kind are to find in JA. I just don't know how Courts could ever have approved her credit.

But in relating that experience, I heard the same over and over again from many others. It just seems that is Courts business model (as it is here in the US with other RTO businesses). They are setup as place of last resort for people who really don't have the money or good credit to afford something. And their prices and financing terms reflect that. But hey, I'm a free market guy - so where there's a demand a business has every right to form and try to meet it. I was more thinking their prices were too high - that they were not an option as a place for me to consider buying the TV that I have been talking about - than they shouldn't be an option for others.

I know it's old fashioned, but what ever happened to denying yourself pleasure in the short-term for a long-term goal, and save up ahead of time for these type of purchases. They would avoid the high prices and finance costs. But hey, the whole US economy went in the tank because I am in the minority on that opinion.

OK I realize I got my soapbox out again - but last time (I hope).

[Rob]

Buying there creates more jobs (agreed) but Higher wages --???

Lola,

Simple economics. When there are less jobs available, there are more people looking for each job, so the employers can offer lower wages for each job. When there are more jobs available, there are less people looking for each available job, which makes more competition to find that new employee and that leads to higher wages.

[Rob]

They are setup as place of last resort for people who really don't have the money or good credit to afford something. And their prices and financing terms reflect that. But hey, I'm a free market guy - so where there's a demand a business has every right to form and try to meet it. I was more thinking their prices were too high - that they were not an option as a place for me to consider buying the TV that I have been talking about - than they shouldn't be an option for others.

I know it's old fashioned, but what ever happened to denying yourself pleasure in the short-term for a long-term goal, and save up ahead of time for these type of purchases. They would avoid the high prices and finance costs. But hey, the whole US economy went in the tank because I am in the minority on that opinion.

OB,

The US economy went into the tank for a few more reasons that just the one opinion you mentioned, but no need to get into that here.

But for the Jamaican issue about Courts that you mentioned, when the average wage is around us$50 for a 40 hour work week, the Courts rent to own plan may be the only option should someone want to own something that they want to have to make their life more comfortable. Perhaps it would be wiser to forego any such purchases, but human nature being what it is - people do like to make their lives a bit more comfortable. I am sure that some people feel that Jamaicans should not have anything that they cannot directly afford, but not everyone feels that way.

A note about the duties charged on electronic items, only the items that are considered luxury items attract a high duty - which is exactly the same as in the USA. The difference here being once again the definition of luxury items. When you consider the average wage of us$50 per week, a big screen tv is considered a luxury so they do attract a higher duty.

Please note that for years there was no duty whatsoever on computers and related items. There was none because the Jamaican government realized how important they were to the economy and the education system and people needed every single break they could get to be able to afford them. Only in the past few years has there been duty on computers, and even at present the duty on a computer is between 10-20% - well less than the 100% you claim there is on electronic items.

Perhaps the electronic items you have experience with are considered luxury items. But still, why bring them in the first place? If you buy them here, which you can, you will be helping the local economy grow. This will make less need for the duty to be charged by the government as there will be more jobs and higher wages and more competition. You can rationalize your wanting to save the money any way you desire, but please do not think you are helping the local economy when you bring in items to the island that can be purchased here.

[Ohio_Buckeye_1]

First re Courts - I didn't say they should have to forgo altogether, just would be better to practice a little delayed gratification. Save up first and so avoid paying high prices and finance costs - they would be SOOO much better off in the long run. Again, I realize I'm in the minority on that practice, too. And I know saving is hard when you're poor - and the finance payment is a self-imposed forced payment. But doing that they are only digging themselves deeper in - not getting out of - poverty.

Glad to know that high duty isn't uniform - and there's at least some thought, like with computers. For instance I found construction material is more expensive, but nowhere near double. That's the kind of info I've been wanting to know. I know that some things aren't so over-priced as electronics - so didn't think the high duty was on everything, but it's like pulling teeth to find out any reliable info.

For instance, after these discussions, I tried to find out what the duty would be on that $300 TV bringing it thru customs and declaring it. Noone on this board seems to know, and these boardies are the most experienced people at Jamaican travel/immigration I know of. It's ranged from a guess it would only be a small $40-50US duty, to it would be so much that it would be cheaper to pay the $675US JA retail price I found. So I turned to several hours searching the internet. You would think the JA gov't would make that duty rates available on the internet - but it's not. I found you have to write to an agency in Kingston and they will mail you the schedule of customs duties. The gov't does a pretty good job at posting some things on the internet - like fiance visa info - so why not the customs info?

My sour experience with electronics duty was the following. I mailed several batches of developed pictures to my then just-girlfriend in JA after my 5-week trip. So she could see them on her electronic picture frame, too, I also copied them to 4 small 2GB SD-chips and included them with the pictures. Normal activity here in the US, right? Well, ignorant me back then, I had no idea that would be subject to duty. Or that there even existed a Jamaica Postal Customs Agent who's job is to open packages and assess the duty on things mailed to Jamaicans from abroad. They told my girlfriend she would have to pay $6000J to get this package. The SD chips cost me only about $7US each here, and they wanted $1500J duty for each!!! (the developed pics were duty-free) If I had known, I would have included the receipts to show the cost wasn't as high as they were valuing them based on JA prices for SD chips. My girlfriend argued and after a couple days and several trips to the PO, finally got them to come down to $4000J - but still. I wasn't trying to save money and buy US instead of JA in that case - just send my GF copies of our vacation pics. I was pretty much ignorant of JA duty before that, and assumed it was just some small percent of the value, but was rudely awakened to it then. Lucky that even though a high percent, in that case a small-value item. Imagine if I had unwittingly mailed a $200US picture frame, not knowing of the high-duty on electronics - they might have wanted $200-400US to get it.

So, apparantly SD-chips are luxury items, too - and about triple the price in JA than here in the U.S. because of the duty. They don't manufacture SD-chips in JA, or even the U.S. as far as I know - I think they all are shipped over from Asia. Us tourists for the most part bring our photo supplies with us. So mainly only the Jamaicans pay this duty when they buy SD-chips. By making Jamaicans pay triple the world market price when they want to take pictures on SD-chips, how is this protecting the JA economy and helping the JA people - rather than the gov't just ripping them off? I know the govt has to fund itself thru taxes, but you would think the normal GCT tax would be about the right amount for that.

You've convinced me that the duty on what tourists bring in on vacation IS good and protects their economy. But definitely not the duty on imported goods mainly Jamaicans would be buying for themselves - like SD-chips and TVs that don't have a mfg base in Jamaica to protect. Us tourists buying the occassional luxury item as a gift would be more likely, too.

It's only the duty on imported goods for retail sale (not the tourist duty at the airport) making a $300 TV cost $675 in a JA store that had me even considering bringing down a TV. Without that duty causing the excessive price, I would have just planned to go to a JA store and buy it. That import duty (again on JA imports, not the tourist one at the airport) is what caused me to think about other options than NOT buying in JA. And probably why so many people on vacation bring so much stuff with them, rather than just buying it in JA - which would be so much easier. Even stuff they are allowed to bring without declaring, like sunblock, bug spray, shampoo - liquids are such a hassle traveling by plane now. I'd love to come with just a carry-on bag and not pay the checked bag fees. But they are so much higher in JA, it's worth it to bring them - and JA loses out on those sales.

[Rob]

OB,

For someone saying that they are building a home in Jamaica, I am a bit confused by your comments.

"Normal activity here in the US, right?" - okay, lets say it was normal in the US at the time. Why would you conclude that this same activity is equally "normal" in a different country? You are comparing the 20th century's last remaining super power with a small, developing island country. Why would anyone expect that every activity be equally "normal" in both countries. There are codes, fashions, cultural, driving, cooking, musical, sporting, etc differences between Jamaica and the USA. Why jump to the conclusion the Jamaican government is ripping off its own people just because you notice there is a difference in a certain activity in Jamaica than the US? Isnt it possible that maybe you just didnt know the reason for the difference?

I did find it interesting that you did note that there was no duty at all on the photos. Hmmm, could this possibly be more "normal activity" in Jamaica at the time than an electronic picture frame was back when this "sour experience" occurred?

Which brings me to my next thought, when exactly did this take place. You claim you bought the 2gig SDs for us$7 a piece. You claim Jamaica charges triple the amount and state that this fact is one of the things keeping Jamaica a country in poverty. Yesterday at MegaMart I priced the 2gig SD cards at ja$695 - or around us$8.

You say the Jamaican government is ripping of their own people by "making Jamaicans pay triple the world market price when they want to take pictures on SD-chips" - and yet Jamaicans pay us$8 for something you paid us$7. How is this possibly triple the world market price?

But again, if this is because the "sour experience" happened years ago, maybe the SD cards that you felt were so normal in the US at the time were considered a luxury item in Jamaica at that time. Perhaps most Jamaicans had never seen or even heard of an electronic picture frame back at that time. And perhaps the very few Jamaicans that this policy would effect at the time would be considering them luxury items as well.

The Jamaican government has let you know that you can receive the duty list from them. I am sure that information will be online sometime in the future, but I am also sure that it is not one of their main priorities. Nothing online at present would be definitive and would be subject to change. Even the US government website states that their "interactive data base that will enable you to get an approximate idea of the duty rate for a particular product. Please be aware that the duty rate you request is only as good as the information you provide. The actual duty rate of the item you import may not be what you think it should be as a result of your research. CBP makes the final determination of what the correct rate of duty is, not the importer."

You say that you dont want to pay for checked bags and want to bring just a carry on. Well, why dont you? The sunblock, shampoo and bugsprays you mention are all available here. Stop at MegaMart after leaving the airport. Lisa and I were just there last night. We buy all our needs right here in Jamaica and do not depend on getting things "cheaper" in the USA to be able to survive. You can do the same. And you would be helping the local economy grow...

If you are wanting to buy just the US brands you are used to in Jamaica, of course you may find those products more expensive. The US does not export their products cheaply and wants to maintain a high standard for their export products. With these items as well as the luxury items such as the big screen TV, lets look at this another way. Maybe you should heed your own advice and forego those purchases until the time comes that you feel that you can afford it here and not break the law trying to sneak those products in by providing less than truthful information to the Customs Agents. For most items you will need, you can purchase the locally made or Caricom brands instead and they are much less expensive. There are some great products that you may not be aware of that are readily available here. As for the luxury items, they will become lower in price as the economy grows.

[tfw73]

Rob, good advice. I'm thinking of just buying 'vacation essentials' at the MegaMart and skipping the checked bag altogether. We'd have to use Wal-Mart for those purchases and that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms, lol. I'm all for shopping locally, but when on vacation I much prefer to put my dollars into their economy.