Tipping etiquette and Jamaica.

[Blake]

Help where you can and stop over analyzing a situation you cant change.

If I was sitting there on vacation I'd agree to stop analyzing it, I analyze most situations to come to the best conclusion I can, it's silly to stop questioning why things are around, otherwise it just leads to a bad outcome.

Only factor you have control over is that "extra" tip. which isnt an extra tip but pepole are very close minded and dont look at it from the other side of the fence.

How am I supposed to look at it from the other side of the fence if we're not allowed to analyze it? Or better yet how are we supposed to look at it from the other side when the other side just says to chill and says it's the way it is.

I agree that this is a pointless point to be debating.

Pointless to you maybe, but to many of us that want to understand why things are the way they are and to actually make things better then it's far from pointless.

It was done for the beautiful pepole of Jamaica the place you all love to visit you spend thousands getting there and staying there but a tip is the kicker

That's a weak argument, there are beautiful people everywhere, that doesn't mean you nickle and dime tourists visiting you after they've already spent thousands getting and staying there.

the entitlement some pepole feel they have in a DIFFERENT COUNTRY.

It's not entitlement to want to know why things are set up the way they are, it's not entitlement to want to know whether the people working there actually get the money from a service charge, and it's definitely not entitlement to want to pay the right amount without overspending.

It IS entitlement to expect tourists to shell out simply because they are spending their money already.

SO to sum this up no matter if theres a service charge or not if you like the "face" (the pepole you see) service, tip that person what you can...

I'll tip based on the service received, and I will factor in a service charge given that it IS double dipping not triple dipping if you're charging me for the food(which includes overhead/salaries)+ a service charge(paying for staff)+a Tip(paying for staff again).

unless you say something insulting when you give it to them like" you need this more than me" or something horrid like that

There is a difference between questioning the status quo and insulting the workers. Believe it or not I have worked and do work in the service industry, that doesn't mean I'm "entitled" to make a certain amount.

whats the point of worring on a vacation... you might as well have stayed home

Who said I worry on a vacation? There is a difference between posting on internet forums and debating the merits of things like service charges, and being ON vacation.

I do as the Romans do while in Rome, that doesn't mean I don't want to know as much as possible about the culture and where MY money IS going and where it IS NOT going.

I learn as much about businesses as I can but I'm not going to sit in a store and start blasting a business owner on how he should operate(unless he's paying me a consulting fee).

[Rob]

Blake,

Since you do want to learn as much as you can about business in Jamaica, there is a good article written by a tax attorney in the Observer and published about a year ago - here is the link:

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/busin...erence_9461924

A couple key points are 1) yes, it is somewhat redundant for a restaurant to charge the service fee when they could have simply raised the menu prices by the same factor and 2) it is NOT a tip, it is a service charge, not a "good service charge". You pay it just the same way as if the item cost that much more.

There is no "double dipping" - the restaurant is liable to pay the same taxes on the service charge as they do on the food costs, as it is simply an addition to the food cost. There are no taxes paid by the restaurant on any tip you would leave, that is a different thing all together - a tip is not "paying the staff" but a personal reward that you give the server for their prompt service.

So your "food equation" should actually read "food + service charge (which includes overhead/salaries and paying the staff) + a Tip (rewarding your server for good service).

[booger]

Again I say it. Itemized on not Itemized. It is no different than anything else in business. For those that are curious as what to do in Negril. It's simple, do as you would at home and all will be IRIE. As stated, the vast majority make next to nothing every week and the extra dough they make on tips is very much appreciated.
Blake, you are passionate about this topic as you continue to seek understanding. Are you aware of the so called Italian price?

[Rob]

Another thing to consider about the service charge when it is shared among the employees is that in a tourism economy like Negril, when things are busy, the employees earn more money. Rather than just receiving their hourly rate, they get a bonus based on the service charge. So when the business makes more money, each employee would make more money as well.

This is an easy and fair way for more people to directly benefit from the tourism in Jamaica.

[Ras Walleye]

If the bill says gratuity added I consider that when figuring the tip. If it says service charge I tip as I normally would and I too tip 15% for service 20% for good service and more as warranted for exceptional service. For driving charters whether airport or excursion I tip the same. I round up in route taxis because it's quick and easy. For house keeping I leave $5US a day and make a point to get to know our house keepers and add a little more on the last day. I tip bellmen and baggage handlers $1US per bag minimum. And I always make it a point to get to know the security guys and put a little in their hand as well. It's always worked for me. Bless...

Ed

[Blake]

There is no "double dipping" - the restaurant is liable to pay the same taxes on the service charge as they do on the food costs, as it is simply an addition to the food cost. There are no taxes paid by the restaurant on any tip you would leave, that is a different thing all together - a tip is not "paying the staff" but a personal reward that you give the server for their prompt service.

So your "food equation" should actually read "food + service charge (which includes overhead/salaries and paying the staff) + a Tip (rewarding your server for good service).

Thanks

Per your article I would argue that they are in fact double dipping.

Thus, a service charge applied at a restaurant is somewhat redundant as the restaurant business is a service industry, just like a law business. Imagine your lawyer sending you a bill for legal fees and then adding a 10 per cent service charge.

My biggest issue is where the service charge actually goes and why it exists, not that it benefits the people of Jamaica.

1. If it goes towards the employees, then logic dictates the food prices would reflect that, yet Jamaican restaurants seem to be on par with US restaurants.

2. If it doesn't go towards the employees(which some employees claim, see one of Rob's first posts) then where does it go?

3. If the food prices don't reflect the employees pay(excluding servers, I'm not debating the merits of gratuity), then what DO they reflect?

This has nothing to do with how poor the country is or the desire for us to support the Jamaican people, enforced capitalism isn't a free market, the restaurants should pay their employees better and price their food accordingly.

I support the people of Jamaica when I visit either directly(gratuity) or indirectly,but this makes me wonder if the restaurants are supporting Jamaicans.

Let me try to make it clear that while I'm opposed to the tipping system(in that it does NOT increase the quality of service), I understand why the tipping system is set up. I can't fathom the service charge as being anything other than a double dip if the food costs are meant to reflect employee pay(excluding servers).

At what point is it excessive? I believe in transparent pricing and not a low ball on the food and then a bunch of extra service charges.

I'd also like to point out that the GCT is applied TO the service charge, which means you're not just paying an extra 10%, you're paying 10% extra+GCT even though the food prices are not lowered to reflect that.

I do believe that they should change the name from service charge to service tax to avoid confusion about whether or not it's considered gratuity.

At the end of the day I'm far from cheap, but I am frugal and like to know where my money is going and why it's being taken the way it is.

[Mattmon]

OKAY, I'll bite! Booger, please elaborate on "Italian Price?"

[Rob]

Blake,

It seems that you are not understanding the concept that the service charge IS part of the cost of the meal. To call it a tax would be incredibly dishonest and is also against the law. It is NOT a tax or some strange/double dipping additional charge - it could have been added DIRECTLY into the item cost. But to add it into the food cost would not help the employees take home pay when times are busy. This simple procedure allows the employees to have a bit higher take home pay when times are good. In order to help the employees receive a little more benefit from the tourism industry, the service charge is calculated as a separate item. As pointed out, this allows all the employees to receive a bit more money than just their hourly wages when times are busy. Think of the shared service charge as a bonus to their hourly wages.

As I mentioned in the other Service Charge thread that was posted earlier, "It is often speculated that the employees never see the service charge. You may even hear that from the employees themselves. But this is simply not true. If a business has a service charge, then the business can be fined and even closed should they do not share this with all their hourly employees. A server may say they never see the money, but they do see their percentage of that charge which is of course much smaller depending on the number of employees. For the example above, the server may feel they didnt get anything from it, because they never saw 90% of the charge. But they did receive their percentage on their paycheck." Simply put, not every employee is privy to how the restaurant's accounting operates, nor is it in their immediate interest to let you know the exact details.

You ask why the food prices are on par with the US prices. That is because Jamaica is a small developing island nation and needs to import the vast majority of what is served. Take into account that fuel prices are way more expensive in Jamaica (gas is about us$6 a gallon, what did you pay this weekend?) and electric charges are higher than the US, and imported items are higher in cost than in the US, and it is easily understandable why the costs are what they are on the menu. You are not in the USA but Jamaica, so you have to readjust your thinking to take into account the differences between a major world power with vast natural resources and a small developing island nation.

Many restaurants choose to not have a service charge and raise their menu prices to reflect this. If the government dis-allowed service charges tomorrow, the menu item costs would go up at places that have a service charge. You would pay the same either way. But at present, for places that do have a service charge, this simple accounting breakdown allows the employees to directly benefit from tourism when times are busy. And of course you will pay GCT on the food bill - both the menu item cost AND the service charge (if applicable) are the cost of the meal.

[Blake]

Blake,

It seems that you are not understanding the concept that the service charge IS part of the cost of the meal.

Except that a service charge is added AFTER the meal, it is NOT part of the meal unless you consider gratuity part of the meal.

To call it a tax would be incredibly dishonest and is also against the law. It is NOT a tax or some strange/double dipping additional charge - it could have been added DIRECTLY into the item cost.

It's no more dishonest than saying it's part of the meal, at this point I think we need to break down what the food price goes towards:

1. Rent
2. Food costs
3. Employee overhead
4. Utilities, bills, etc.

But to add it into the food cost would not help the employees take home pay when times are busy.

Why wouldn't it help the employees take home pay? Are you saying that the restaurants would withhold it and pocket the money? Why are we playing games of transparency when it comes to the cost of running a business?

This simple procedure allows the employees to have a bit higher take home pay when times are good. In order to help the employees receive a little more benefit from the tourism industry, the service charge is calculated as a separate item. As pointed out, this allows all the employees to receive a bit more money than just their hourly wages when times are busy. Think of the shared service charge as a bonus to their hourly wages.

Can we call it what it is, a tourism tax? I don't necessarily see anything wrong with it, what I have issues with is the sugar coating that goes into it.

I'm all for paying the employees fairly and especially when times are busy; but the meals should be transparent and the restaurant owners should be the ones to shell out and the prices should reflect it.

As I mentioned in the other Service Charge thread that was posted earlier, "It is often speculated that the employees never see the service charge. You may even hear that from the employees themselves. But this is simply not true. If a business has a service charge, then the business can be fined and even closed should they do not share this with all their hourly employees. A server may say they never see the money, but they do see their percentage of that charge which is of course much smaller depending on the number of employees. For the example above, the server may feel they didnt get anything from it, because they never saw 90% of the charge. But they did receive their percentage on their paycheck." Simply put, not every employee is privy to how the restaurant's accounting operates, nor is it in their immediate interest to let you know the exact details.

So are we in agreement that the servers need to be honest and say that they do see a portion of it?

Why was the manager lying to the other person about what the service charge is for?

It's in their immediate interest to be honest with the customers instead of lying through their teeth.

You ask why the food prices are on par with the US prices. That is because Jamaica is a small developing island nation and needs to import the vast majority of what is served. Take into account that fuel prices are way more expensive in Jamaica (gas is about us$6 a gallon, what did you pay this weekend?) and electric charges are higher than the US, and imported items are higher in cost than in the US

I understand that Jamaica is a small developing island and needs to import the majority of items. That said if it isn't sustainable then perhaps they need to reevaluate the business model, countries(the US included) need to try to not rely on imports to sustain the entire nation.

Fuel prices here are $4-5 a gallon, electricity is extremely expensive(Over $1,000 a month for each of my stores in utilities), rent is Ridiculous(up to $200 a square foot), regulations cost a lot to comply with, and shipping can kill our profit margin.

We also tend to have higher employee costs(I start my people at $10-$20 an hour), imported items are still prohibitively expensive, and we tend to have a LOT of taxes.

If you want to say that food prices in Jamaica are the same yet don't include labor(given that this is what the service charge is for) I have a hard time believing that the food costs reflect purely import costs(especially for the places using local seafood) alone.

All of what you described every US business deals with on a daily basis, yet we don't have service charges.

You are not in the USA but Jamaica, so you have to readjust your thinking to take into account the differences between a major world power with vast natural resources and a small developing island nation.

I will adjust my thinking when I'm actually in Jamaica, currently I AM in the USA. That doesn't mean I can't question why there is a service charge above and beyond the cost of the food+gratuity.
Transparency is key if you want to build good will, the service charge should be part of the food and if you want to keep gratuity go ahead(even though it doesn't foster better service).

Many restaurants choose to not have a service charge and raise their menu prices to reflect this. If the government dis-allowed service charges tomorrow, the menu item costs would go up at places that have a service charge. You would pay the same either way. But at present, for places that do have a service charge, this simple accounting breakdown allows the employees to directly benefit from tourism when times are busy. And of course you will pay GCT on the food bill - both the menu item cost AND the service charge (if applicable) are the cost of the meal.

I would prefer that there be no service charges and allow the restaurants to compete on an even foot.

I'm of the opinion that a service charge does Jamaicans a disservice because when foreigners sit down they're not going to have this entire forum's worth of perspective, most people will see a service charge and assume(right or wrong) that it IS the gratuity, especially on meals that are more expensive.

When you Mandate a fee to pay the employees it isn't optional and it doesn't foster good will, it leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, especially when the managers don't even know how to explain the service charge!

[Beebeluv]

i somewhat admire your persistance with this AND somewhat annoyed, but ROB HAS IT COVERED btw thank YOU ROB for all you do and I am looking forward to meeting you in NOV. ...lighter note why are u aruguing with a man that is currently located in alcholics annonamous lol jk jk lol


btw ur obviously not in "aa" well maybe but thats not our buisness... but which state do you live in this might help us clarify ur utter annoyance with this situatiuon