Working hard for change...we can help!

[booger]

Go in august. I didn't see any tourists, and for that reason, no higglers either. Was kind of boring though.

Anyway, in 12+ trips. My wife and I have had 2 really negative experiences. I will say 2 times in 90 plus days I have spent in negril.

One time some dude started yelling at me for not buying his aloe our very first trip. You know what I did? I started yelling back at him.

The other time, this guy started screaming at my brother on providence road for not giving him a cigarette. That issue was nipped in the bud almost instantly by a local.

But I grew up and have lived in and around Philly or north Miami my whole life. I deal rude people every single day.

So for me, dealing with an ass hole 2 times in 90 days is a ratio I can live with. Lord knows I deal with more annoying people almost daily on real life and on the Internet.

So I guess it's about perspective for me.

LOL. And who has not dealt with a DB aloe guy? I'm with Flip as far as the issues vs day ratio. I have the same amount of trips to the island and can count on one hand issues that have occurred. And only twice was is not my or someone in my parties fault. Aloe guy getting a bit too close to my kiddo(dealt with immediately by a few large local dudes) and a rude boy at American Pie trying to intimidate a tourist. American Pie is mostly a local spot, so you can count that one out too.... Like Flip I live in an urban/suburban environment and deal with DB's nearly everyday. The vendors/higglers are a non issue. It's the crackheads and beggars that need to be dealt with.

A lot of what happens is due to how you carry yourself, just like anywhere else in the world.

[HarryS]

A lot of what happens is due to how you carry yourself, just like anywhere else in the world.

Completely, 100% disagree. I'm a New Yorker. One who has friends in Harlem and used to take the subway there and home at 3 and 4am, never bothered once because I know how to carry myself. You know, that was an area back when I used to go (151st and Bdwy) where they would tell white people "don't be there after dark". I never, not once, in years, had a single problem.

In Negril, not the case. I'm glad Flip and Booger only had two run-ins in all their visits, but again it feels like you're blaming the tourists for what happens and not seeing the problem for what it is. Because you're at a "locals place" doesn't suddenly make it OK or understandable.

But to come and say it doesn't really happen all that often, and that it must be in some part due to the tourists actions is really not cool when people are saying that's not the case for them.

I guess when I want to walk the beach and not be bothered, that's somehow my fault when I'm harassed. And when I stop and have a conversation, and when I say "no thanks" and the vendor gets aggressive, that's also somehow my fault. Maybe I look like someone "easy to intimidate"? I'm 5'7" and 165lbs, and even though I'm not a big guy I don't get intimidated easily and I'm sure as hell not going to hand over money or buy stuff from you if you think that's a viable sales tactic. And touching me or my wife? in ANY way? Completely unacceptable. I don't care if you're just taking her hand, I KNOW it's not to be friendly - it's an intimidation tactic, and a way to keep people from moving on so they can continue to attempt to make a sale. Enough people hand over money or make purchases they don't want just to make that stop, and it encourages them to do it again.

And don't say I should be stopping to talk to everyone who wants to, otherwise it's disrespectful - It would take me two days to walk the beach and back if I stopped and had a "friendly conversation" with everyone who wanted my attention. They don't want conversation, they want money. I'm in sales, deal with sales all day, and the last thing I want on vacation is to be sold to, especially sold things I don't want and have no interest in. When a friendly "no thanks!" and a wave doesn't work, something isn't right.

[halfwaytree]

The government of Jamaica can take measures right away to deal with the harassment of tourist but there seems to be no political will to do so.

In a country where political corruption is rampant who knows who is getting paid to keep the status quo.

[wha gwan]

HarryS is 100% spot on, from his critique of blaming the tourist when they are harassed to the transparent methods of the higglers!

[Accompong]

The government of Jamaica can take measures right away to deal with the harassment of tourist but there seems to be no political will to do so.

In a country where political corruption is rampant who knows who is getting paid to keep the status quo.

I find this post to be a little confusing and troubling. Let me see if I understand it.

Just what measures can the government take right away to deal with the harassment? Knock people over the head? Put them in prison? I would be interested in hearing what you would do if you had the power to try to fix it.

Jamaica is just one big market place. All over the island people sell openly in the streets, on sidewalks in front of stores, and that is not just from locals to locals but to tourists as well. We should not conflate "political will" with "economic necessity". People have to survive and have been struggling to do so as long as anyone can remember. Wherever you find a potential customer in Jamaica, you find one or more people who are more than willing to sell to them. This biggest issue for me is that what they are selling is usually cheap junk that either I don't want or need anyways. Of course, it is more of a problem or concern where money congregates like Kingston, MoBay, Ochi and Negril. Respect has to be earned and can't be legislated or coerced.

In Kingston, you see how Jamaicans handle it when dealing with other Jamaicans and they mostly pretend the seller just doesn't even exist and walk on by. Sometimes they stop and listen say "No Thank you" and walk off. I think the more you try to reason, discuss or get angry with them, the more of a problem you have. After all, this is their country and it is their problem to solve but like everything else it just goes on and on because they really don't see it as that big of a problem.

Political corruption is rampant. Who knows who is getting paid to keep the status quo.

Yes, there is political corruption but I don't think it could be called "rampant". Rampant is what it was but it has been getting better in my opinion.

This is what I find the most troubling. Who knows who is getting paid to keep the status quo. Just who gains by keeping the status quo? I believe that everyone would benefit if the harassment were to magically stop. For the life of me, I just can't imagine who would pay and who would get paid to keep the status quo. Any ideas on that halfwaytree?

Peace and Guidance

[Rob]

HarryS,

You can 100% disagree, but that does not make them wrong. Their experiences are as equally valid as yours.

Bnewb posted this survey thread because there IS a problem worldwide and they are looking for a solution. If you want the harassment to have a chance to be stopped, please fill out the survey. And did you even read the article? If you didnt, I would suggest that you do. To quote a very important part of the article:

"(Dr.) Nicely also argued that varying views about what constitutes harassment continues to pose a challenge.

"What is harassment, to me, might not be harassment to you so there is a lack of clarity as to which behaviours constitute harassment..."

So rather than accuse people here of saying "it doesn't happen!" or "just say no and it stops right away!" they must be either in denial, don't leave their AI resort, or are there so often they are "locals" and aren't bothered any more", quite possibly you have a different viewpoint/tolerance of the problem than others do. I am sure that some people feel your above quoted comments are harassing in their own way.

We run into people everyday of the week who say the harassment they experience is down from previous years. It is all in their perspective from their personal experiences.

I know about the "New York" way to carry yourself, having spent much time there when my sister lived in Astoria. But if I were to try to use that same attitude here, I would get myself in a world of trouble. Negril is not New York.

In both Flip and Booger's experience, locals came to their aid. Bnewb suggested to Moose to seek out a local if things feel out of control. That is great advice because it works.

And I agree that allowing you or wife to be touched when not wanted is unacceptable. I am not blaming the tourist, but that can be remedied. I would suggest that she doesnt allow them to "just take her hand" as you stated, but you take her hand instead. The hand holding is not an intimidation tactic but a transparent sales tactic. Being in sales, I find it curious you didnt recognize that immediately. What better way to get keep someone's attention!

As you do in sales, the point for the vendor is to make the sale to pay their bills and feed their families, not make new friends. If you do become friends in the long run, that is a nice bonus, but the point is the sale. When they realize that they will not be making a sale, most will move on to the next possible sale, just as you do.

Of course there are the occasional "bad apples" and even vendors who have simply had a bad day. Perhaps they didnt make their JPS bill money and their current will be shut off, didnt make enough money to get a new propane tank or they didnt make money to buy food to feed the family that day. That can put them in a fragile state of mind if you are a vendor living literally on the daily income you earn.

Please take the time to read the article and fill out the survey. This is a global problem and the survey can be a start to the solution.

[Patricia]

Bravo Rob!!!

[halfwaytree]

Accompong, you post an interesting question.

The guys that dot the beach selling their "product(s)". Are they all freelancing, with their own little slice of the beach or are many of them sub contracted out by a larger entity? It is that larger entity, or perhaps the person, or people he reports to that may have a relationship with those that govern. Palms get greased to keep things running "as is" without any enactment or enforcement of loitering laws or setting up a system of licensing those that can sell their wares on the beach.

I have no proof, but as a Jamaican who spent the first half of my life there I know the rabbit hole can run deep.

I realize how things run in Kingston, I understand how it works there but Negril is not Kingston. What is the reality in Kingston is not understood by those visiting Negril for a week or two.

[wha gwan]

Rob I respectfully take exception with some of your comments.

On one hand you state, "The hand holding is not an intimidation tactic but a transparent sales tactic." and then you quote Dr. Nicely, "What is harassment, to me, might not be harassment to you so there is a lack of clarity as to which behaviours constitute harassment...". Seems like you want it both ways. Although I somewhat agree with the relativism argument made by the doc, it does not hold up when, in my experience, I am cussed at & physically threatened by higglers. You can argue that it is not harassment but I am not buying it.

You may know the "New York" way to carry yourself, but I did not read anything in HarryS actions that define a NY way. To me his "NY" way is that he is not naive or gullible (i.e., street smart) and will not be smooth or rough talked into doing something he does not want to do.

I agree that there are many folks struggling to make an honest living and carry themselves in a responsible manner (relatively speaking, wink, wink), but unfortunately there are many that do not and these are most the ones who are peddling illicit goods.

[Flipadelphia26]

HarryS,

I didn't say it doesn't happen or it didn't happen to you. I just said it doesn't happen to us. Or I don't perceive my normal experiences or interactions in Negril to be harassment, based on what I see and deal with almost every day here in the states.

As I clearly stated. It's all about perception.

And, I would never suggest "Stopping and talking to everyone". In fact, if you dont want to talk to or deal with higglers - don't break stride as you're walking. Either wave them off and or/say no. Or don't say anything at all.


Hell, I have sat with Rob and Lisa on the beach at the bar, and even they occasionally have someone come ask them if they want to buy some smoke, some woven basket or whatever.